Rafal the loser from Poland fights dogs - black ball his ass

[congaDR]

I just got an email from some loser in Poland named Rafal.

This idiot was telling me about his life in Poland, then he says he love to fight dogs.

Id love to see his pit tear him apart, and bet on how loud he screams... what a pussy.

email of this asshole: ******* edited

Black ball this idiot - lets find out his handle on this board and tell him to get lost.

Please support, if you love animals.

Tony

[Derbeno]

You 100% sure he is from Poland and not San Diego?

[Coco]

I'm not sure this is the right thread to work out your differences about the bona fides of guys from San Diego who buy and sell congas Derbeno...I've never had any dealings with that guy and have no opinion one way or another (although I think all Tony was trying to do was look out for other board members).

On the other hand I do have an opinion about people who fight dogs....they're lowlife scumbags. And anyone who then boasts about it in email to someone he doesn't know is not only a scumbag, but a stupid scumbag.

If the guy is on this board then I would be very happy if he got blackballed . Can the mods please tell us if someone with that email address is registered here? If so, what is his handle?

As the owner of three dogs (including a pit cross) the idea of hanging in the same place as this sort of evil cretin is not acceptable for me.

Props to you for taking a stand Tony.

[congaDR]

thanks Coco.

Derbeno, trying to be funny? ... not about this...

T

[Chupacabra]

If you really feel that strongly about it maybe you could try and keep communication open with this person and find out as much as you can. Keep all the e-mails with ALL the header information. If you think you might have enough info for an investigator to trace, then bring what you have to their attention. I would be very surprised if the ASPCA would not be interested. You might also find that the Polish equivalent to the ASPCA takes issues like this seriously too. Animal fighting in any form is illegal in the majority of countries in the world, although it is still widely practised, unfortunately.
Here in internet-land we have to realize that there are all kinds of anonymous people with god-knows what kind of issues that most of us find reprehensible. The smarter ones keep it to themselves to avoid persecution, the not-so-smrt ones seem to stick their necks out, and occasionally a little too far and that provides an opportunity to teach them just who's who in the food chain of life.
In this case, that chance is probably gone for now. If he or she was shooting their mouth off once, they'll probably do it again and maybe that'll be the opportunity someone needs the next time.

[ABAKUA]

lets find out his handle on this board and tell him to get lost.



Tony

Im against animal cruelty in a big way, I love dogs.


But Tony, what has led you to understand this person is a member of Congaplace?

I did a search on the Administration features I have using that email addess you posted and that email is not a registered member of this board.

Username Email Posts Website, Location Joined Last active
No members found for this search criterion.

Also, are you sure its not an email spam/hoax like what was sent to JC, automated spyware/spambots that auto email junk like this out to random people through hidden email accounts to make it look like someone has emailed you?

Post the email here, Id be interested in doing a little investigation on it.

[congaDR]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Tony,
So you were in Poland in mid 1990's. It was interesting time but in
terms
of economic development Poland of that time was closer to Belarus than
to
Western Union. Now our currency is so strong that buying a conga or
whatever in the US and paying in weak dollars is a real bargain - good
time for us:) Only the taxes and shipping costs are a little
discouraging.
In early 1990 our salaries were like 20 dollars per months and now it
is
over 100 dollars per hour. But there is a price for everything. We have
to
accept lots of stupid regulations and laws from the UE. I told you I
spent
some time in the US and the UK. I went there to study business but also
to
pursue my hobby - breeding and training fighting dogs. Now, back in
Poland
this sport is banned and all dogs are supposed to be decoration of our
couches.
If you want to make reference to some of our conversation it is ok but
please don't quote my negative comments about LP and Meinl. Some people
have such drums and like them and it would not be fair on them,
especially
that some of them cannot afford anything better. So please make sure it
does not touch anybody.
Best,
Rafal


> From: anthony ***** [mailto:*** edited***]
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 7:09 PM
> To: ************
> Subject: Re: FW: LP Valje
>
>
>
> I can say, I really wish i could have spent more time in your
country. I
was there when Tonio's set was made, a very exciting time for Poland,
as
you know well. One day, Ill be back.
>
> Sounds like you have confirmed that Tonio's drums are Siam Oak.
thanks
for the information.
>
> Would it be ok to detail some of our conversation on my blog?
>
> T
>
> ************ wrote:
>
> Hi Tony,
> Don't say sorry, what for?!
> I can't believe it! You are from California and you have heard about
Poznan! That is where I spent first 25 years of my life before moving
to
the UK and the US. But Poznan region is more like Central Europe
(civilized) and it is not a forest area. Real forests are in the
eastern
part of Poland.
> As for LP, they just wrote me they started with beechwood only after
finishing the cherry series, which was after 2000. They claim they did
it becuase beech wood has better tonal quality, but again it may be
marketing talk. The information that rubberwood is the same as Siam oak
and wood from the same plantation is called differerently by different
drum producers is from Meinl and I can copmpare the drums I have from
Meinl (Louis Conte)and LP (classic). BTW I do not like either of them.
They are proper but nothing more. I don't have any feelings about them
and can't get it from them, just mass production line effect.
> Best to you,
> Rafal
>
>
>
>
> Hey Rafal,
>>
>> Sorry for my little experience in your country, it looks like some
nice
mature old forests near Poznan. My apologies.
>>
>> Thanks for the input about the Lp's. We'll see.
>>
>> let me know what LP says.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> s********* wrote:
>>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> 1/ I agree there is not much point in discussing Tonio's set. One
final
comment on it will be that on top of the fact that it looks like Siam
oak,
>> it is hardly justifiable from logical point of view to think it may
be
beech wood if it was produced not later than 1996, ie a few years
before LP started producing congas from beechwood! I think we can
believe what LP
>> guys say about it, and I asked you to consult Brian not to assess
the wood
>> but just confirm when LP started beechwood Valje line. He does not
have to
>> be wood expert to know what LP guys say. Anyway, you can ask LP
yourself,
>> as I did.
>>
>> 2/ I am surpised you have been to Poland and know our woods.
However,
your claim that beech in Poland is very young and with little variation
in
>> color is totally wrong. Sorry to ask but are you sure you are
talking
about Poland? We have very old beech forests with trees about 1m in
diameter. Of course, we also have younger tress and all are harvested.
Your claim about different beech wood in Poland and the States is like
saying people on different sides of the big pond are also difrerent. I
have lived in the States fro quite a time and know it is not true.
>>
>> 3/ As for rubberwood and Siam oak when you are in Poland just drop
in and
>> see - I do have Meinl drums and LP drums as well! I can compare
them, the
>> grain, color and texture - the same! Of course, no drum is made from
exactly the same wood because it is natural material. Sound difference
is
>> caused by different shape, skin processing and production process. I
cannot understand your point. LP and Meinl buy wood from the same
plantation in Thailand and produce drums from it, only they use
different
>> names for the wood. Please ask at Meinl. They wiil be only too happy
to
tell you. It so happens that my uncle used to be the director in charge
of
>> technology in the biggest furniture factory in Poland and a
university
teacher specializing in wood!!! I just asked him about rubberwood and
Siam
>> oak and he totally agrees with me.
>>
>> I hope you will not take my points as harsh. I just wrote to you
about
your comments on the Forum because I see you are very enthusiastic
regarding drums and I vastly admire your work presented on your blog.
Sorry I do not want to write on the Forum. I never write on any Forums
because there are so many half-brain readers on forums. I do not want
to talk to them. I prefer to talk to people who think. BTW, I do
understand your comments about the San Diego ebayer when I read his
comments about other sellers.
>>
>> Best to you and your projects,
>> Rafal
>>>
>>>
>>> _____
>>>
>>> From: anthony *** [mailto:t**********m]
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:05 PM
>>> To: s*************
>>> Subject: Re: LP Valje
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Rafal,
>>>
>>> Tonio's set may be Siam oak, may be beech. Id have to see some
closeups.
>>>
>>> Beech in your country is very young, with little grain or color
variation.
>>> Beech from the states is not the same, fyi. It has more grain and
color variation, due to older trees harvested, and a variety of tree
age in the
>>> forests.
>>>
>>> Ive traveled through miles of beech trees in your country, many
miles of
>>> very young trees - must have been heavily logged in the not so
distant
past. This leads to tight grain beech with little color variation.
>>>
>>> Brian, although a very nice guy and a big collector, is not a wood
expert.
>>> He will be happy to tell you that.
>>>
>>> As far as rubber wood and siam oak. i take it you dont have both
woods to
>>> look at and play. They lood different side by side, and sound
>>> different,
>>> with the rubberwood being more full and warm sounding, for
hardwood.
>>>
>>> If they look and sound different, even if its the same species,
whats the
>>> use in calling it the same wood? Id much rather have a rubberwood
drum.
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>>
>>> Tony
>>>
>>> s************l wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Tony,
>>>
>>> Sure, my original point was that the two drums Tonio thought of
selling are not beechwood but Siam oak, equals rubberwood. Ask Brian
Matza!
>>>
>>> Of course, the same species of tree grown in different conditions
make
diferrent wood, but the same you may claim about almost everything.
That
>>> would mean trying to see any specified and "measurable" difference
between, or from another angle, any specific typical features of any
type
>>> of wood would no longer be possible because oak grown in the forest
to
the
>>> left of the road gets more water and more sun than the oak growing
on the
>>> other side of the road, which is downhill:) We cannot exagggerate.
Biology
>>> is biology, and the same about knowldge of materials. LP and Meinl
can
use
>>> wood from the same tree and they will call it differently. It is
only
marketing. Rubberwood is grown now in Thailand because there are good
conditions for growing it (think about coffee now grown in Brazil but
originally from Ethiopia, of course now there are dozens of spiecies
of coffee, but Brazilian rubberwood and Rubberwood grown in Thailand
is the
>>> same species!!!)
>>> Best,
>>> Rafal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Rafal,
>>>>
>>>> The same species grown in different conditions make a very
different
wood,
>>>> ie Cuban Mohagany grown in the Americas and that now grown in
China, for
>>>> example.
>>>>
>>>> Both Siam Oak and Rubberwood are common names, most likely
referring to
>>>> several similar species of hardwood.
>>>>
>>>> The point is, LP calls it Siam Oak, not Rubberwood, in this case.
>>>>
>>>> Your original point was that you thought the two white drums in
the post
>>>> are Siam Oak and not Beech? Or what drum were you talking about?
>>>>
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>> s***********l wrote: Hi Tony,
>>>>
>>>> But Siam oak is rubberwood!!! It is Hevea brasiliensis, originally
from
>>>> Brazil, now grown on a mass scale in Thailand and the nearby
countries for
>>>> industrial purposes - production of latex. Meinl has never
produced from
>>>> any wood from Brazil!!! They also use Siam oak but are honest
enough to
>>>> call it rubberwood. Another name for it is parawood. You can talk
to
their
>>>> R&D and LP R&D.
>>>>
>>>> As for LP Valje, you can check with Brian. They started with Siam
oak(=rubberwood), through cherrywood and finished with beechwood. Now
LP
>>>> Armando Peraza are fiberglass. They have been producing other
lines from
>>>> rubberwood all the time because they produce in Thailand and
>>>> rubberwood
>>>> is
>>>> very cheap there. It is sort of waste product. LP Valje was meant
to be
>>>> their better line, like now their ash congas.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Rafal
>>>>
>>>> PS
>>>> 1.I know beechwood colors very well because beech is one of the
most
popular woods in Poland. It is the same beech which grows in America.
2. I don't understand "tweener".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Rafal,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the email.
>>>>>
>>>>> Feel free to comment on the board, so we can discuss this there.
>>>>>
>>>>> From what i understand Siam Oak comes from asia and rubberwood
from
Brazil.
>>>>>
>>>>> The pic of the inside of the 'tweener' on my blog is, with little
doubt,
>>>>> the same wood LP uses for their drums these days. an oak with
signature
>>>>> flecking - I know it as Siam Oak - on LP drums marked 'made in
Thailand'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ill have to get a close look at some meinls, as i know they use
rubberwood
>>>>> from Brazil.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a feeling the wood from asia is at least half as expensive
to us
>>>>> here in the usa, as wood from Brazil.
>>>>>
>>>>> With that being said, do you think the drums posted on conga
board, the
>>>>> two light colored with valjeLP sticker are rubberwood, or siam
oak and
>>>>> not
>>>>> beech?
>>>>>
>>>>> That would mean that they went from siam oak, to cherry to both
siam
oak
>>>>> and beech drums?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it went siam oak, cherry, and then beech with no overlap.
But its
>>>>> an educated guess.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way... ive yet to go up to Portland to pick up my Raul!
Some
day...
>>>>>
>>>>> Peace,
>>>>>
>>>>> Tony
>>>>>
>>>>> ********** wrote:
>>>>> Hello congaDR,
>>>>>
>>>>> The following is an e-mail sent to you by ********* via your account
on
"congaplace.com". If this message is spam, contains abusive or other
comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the
board at
>>>>> the following address:
>>>>>
>>>>>**************
>>>>>
>>>>> Include this full e-mail (particularly the headers). Please note
that the
>>>>> reply address to this e-mail has been set to that of **********
>>>>>
>>>>> Message sent to you follows
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Tony,
>>>>>
>>>>> You may remember I wrote you a few emails from Poland about
repairing LP
>>>>> Valje tumbadora and my Rauls. Now I see the picture of that
tumbadora is
>>>>> on
>>>>> your blog's page:) I showed it to Brian Matza and he also
confirmed it
>>>>> is
>>>>> NA cherry wood. I did repair it using synthetic glue, tight
clamping
and
>>>>> a
>>>>> narrow strip of very thin glass matt on the inside, just in case.
The wood
>>>>> shell is now perfectly ok but I still need to replace the skin.
The
original LP is not what I like, so I bought a thicker top class cow
skin
>>>>> from Bauer and hope to reskin the tumbadora when I have a day
free.
How do you find your Raul?
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, onlu for your interest if I may, a few words about the
LP
Valje
>>>>> drums discussed on the forum. I cannot be 100% sure but I think
they
are
>>>>> not beech but rubber wood!!! As Tonio says they are from 1996.
According
>>>>> to
>>>>> Brian, the first Valje made by LP were rubber wood. Only then LP
started
>>>>> Valje Armando Peraza cherry wood in 1997. Later on they changed
to
beechwood but still used the Armando Peraza logo! Originally, LP
Valje
>>>>> rubber wood drums were without the rubber foot at the bottom,
with two
>>>>> bolts on site plates and no LP sign. But in 1996 it may have been
a
transitional model. On top of that, look at the wood, it is not
beech (greyish-pinkish and different grain) but looks like typical
rubber wood
>>>>> (yellowish and typical grain pattern, compare it to Louis Conte
Meinls
>>>>> on
>>>>> the forum). It is not to say rubber wood is something bad. It
comes
from
>>>>> Brazil!! and only now is grown in Thailand. It is sort of
by-product in
>>>>> latex production but very reasonable quality. Now they call it
Siam Oak
>>>>> for
>>>>> marketing purposes (just like Gon Bops used to call their old
drums
wood
>>>>> Mahagony, although it was wood from the Phillipines, having
nothing to
>>>>> do
>>>>> with true mahagony; again not bad but quite popular and cheap in
furniture).
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Rafal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>> ******************************

[ABAKUA]

The user has since made contact with me, Tony (congaDR) it seems you have misinterpreted what is meant by "training fighting dogs"

The term "fighting dogs" is related to the breeds of dog. Not that he trains dogs to fight.
It is a term very commonly used also in Australia.

Given English is not that users first language, he believes he has given you a wrong impression of what he meant to say.

Parts of the various messages Ive received from the user:

Dear Sir,

I understand you are the moderator of the Congaplace Forum. Please regard this letter as a formal protest against the defamation of myself done by another member of the Forum ,Tony *edited*, using the nick of CongaDr.
Hereby, I declare that I have never owned any pit bull, never used or trained any dog for dog fights and never participated or supported this sort of activity!
On the contrary, I have been involved in training dogs as responsible animals which can live in the moderns society. I own only one breed of dogs, ie Central Asian Ovtcharkas. They are originally flock guarding dogs used in Central Asia to protect mainly sheep against wolves and other predators. In recent times the breed has also been used for dog fights in Central Asia and Russia and other post-soviet republics and that is why it has been included in many lists of fighting breeds.
However, I would like to strongly stress that all the dogs I own have never been used for dog fighting. All of them have been continuously shown at dog shows, national an international, and have gained champion titles from dog shows. If they have ever been used for fighting they would have been disqualified from shows. Additionally, all dogs I keep have participated and completed training courses for obedience and have won medals from competition in obedience with the highest score in Poland including other breeds. I have certificates for all my dogs which can prove the above. The dogs which I co-own and do not keep in my garden are all kept by a certified expert in dogo-therapy for disabled children. I myself think CAO’s should not be used for dogo-therapy with children because you can never 100% rely on such a powerful animal. Thus, for that purpose she uses only her Labradors and Cavalier Spaniels but my CAO’s are there during the sessions and show no aggression towards either the patients or other dogs. I can only ad that I myself have five daughters and would never venture keeping dangerous dogs used for fights with my family. All puppies from my kennel have been given to responsible owners, I believe, and many of them are also shown at dog shows and trained for obedience. To support my point that I am a respected and responsible citizen I can only add that I have been a senior lecturer/reader at the Gdańsk University for over 20 years and also an full-time adviser to the President of one the leading banks in this part of Europe (by the way an American bank). It would rather be difficult to mentally combine these with being involved in dog fighting.

I do agree that my email to Tony *edited* was not very clear in what I wanted to say but first I am not a native speaker in English, for what I apologized in my previous emails to him, and I wrote most of my emails to him very quickly without checking and analyzing how he would understand them. Let me know explain in more detail what I meant by the words in which I referred to fighting dogs:

1/ I did not say my hobby is dog fighting but training fighting dogs! I did not mean training them for fights!!! As I already wrote above, we train fighting dog breeds (CAO’s have been unfortunately included in the list) to be accepted by the authorities and not banned. The time which I referred to in my email to Mr *edited* was the time when such a list was being prepared by the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Poland and following the example of other European Union countries, the UK being the first, they wanted to ban breeding and even keeping such breeds altogether. We have won the battle thanks to such efforts like I and my friends did, to show that CAO’s can be perfectly manageable in the society.

2/ I wrote that the sport was banned in Poland but I do not mean dog fighting! I see it may have been understood here but it rather shows bad will of the reader. I meant training breeding, keeping and showing fighting dog breeds. Now, we can keep such dogs but they cannot be trained for guarding or personal protection. It is banned. Most trainers refuse even obedience training because they are simply afraid of such breeds. As I wrote above we managed to protect the fate of CAO’s in this respect because they have been crossed out of the list. I love the breed and many other breeds included in the list, eg Rotweilers. I cannot agree that dogs should be kept only as decoration. They should have some other tasks to perform, such as protecting, guarding, hunting and the like. They need it to feel needed and happy. How could I include dog fighting in this list of making dogs happy?!!!
Depriving dogs of any function but decorative is imposed by various regulations and laws now imposed on Poland by the European Union. Dogs must always be muzzled and on leash, cannot bark, show aggression even when protecting the owner or his property.


Should you like to check the information about myself given above I can give you my full address:

*edited*

I have my kennel registered with the Polish Kennel Club, which is a member of FCI. For information on myself and my dogs you can contact them. You can find their contact data at the web site. The name in Polish is: Zwiazek Kynologiczny w Polsce. You can also contact the Polish equivalent of the British RSPCA. Their Polish name is Towarzystwo Opieki nad Zwierzetami. Eventually, you can report my case to the police. There is nothing I should be afraid of.

Having said the above, I demand public revocation by Mr *edited* (CongaDr) of all that has been said about me on the Forum. I will not accept explanation that it was caused by misunderstanding because I consider his behavior deliberate defamation. He knew me from my previous emails and had no right to suspect me of what he charged me with. In my mail to him I did not write I have or ever had pits, use them for fights or support dog fights. If my language was not perfectly clear he should have first tried to clarify it with me. Instead he wrote to me in very harsh/vulgar words and stressed he will not read any more mails from me as he will automatically place them in spam.. This way I could not explain the case to him. Then he decided to accuse me in public on the Forum using vulgar words again and also presented there our recent exchange of private mails which referred to a completely different subject (before the case with dog fights I asked him no to do it so as not to touch people who own congas of makes which I do not consider first class instruments). In my opinion, he showed unjustified aggression. Moreover, he suggested that proper Western education is what I could get only in the US , hence implying Poland is not part of educated West!!! Unless, he revokes all his words and apologizes in public on the Forum, I will have to refer the case to my lawyers.


Please consider this email as en explanation to you yourself. I will not regard showing it on the Forum as a satisfactory closing of the case. I do not blame you or other members who responded to Mr *edited* post because they have reacted in good faith and cause, only where misled by Mr *edited*. Should you need any further information or something I wrote was still unclear (although now I hope I spent enough time on this mail to make it clear) please contact me.
Best regards,

*edited*

*** I have edited surnames and addresses used on behalf of both members in this matter.



CongaDR, I believe you owe the user an open apology for defaming him this way. This could have been sorted between the 2 of you via Private Message, without openly accusing someone without having the entire story.

[congaDR]

Absolutely no apology will be forthcoming. You can count on that.

Direct quote from the unedited email above:

"I went there to study business but also
to
pursue my hobby - breeding and training fighting dogs. Now, back in
Poland
this sport is banned and all dogs are supposed to be decoration of our
couches."

People,

This is what the man said to me.. I think his english is quite good, dont you?.

'decoration for couches' ?? Please tell me what he means by that, Abakua, other than that dogs should be allowed to fight.

Note, he said the 'hobbie' of training dogs, but the sport is clearly the fight itself.

Dont let him scare you with this defamation claim. The man defamed himself.

He is clearly trying to cover himself, as what he does is clearly illegal in the UK, and Poland, not to mention clearly and obviously immoral.

Yes, i didnt see the man fight dogs. The title should have read,
Rafal the loser from Poland trains fighting dogs, and for that im sorry.

But do you think he trains fighting dogs to catch Frisbees? Please.

Tony

[congaDR]

You know, i tend to think that people who don't take a stand against people like this, are part of this problem, and need to look at their own responsibility to society.

Tony

[Chupacabra]

CD, it sounds like you have the chance right here to get to the bottom of this matter and get it resolved once and for all. He's even inviting you to! Any further hostile and unsubstantiated comments not only make you look like a jack-ass, you could also wind up on the wrong end of a law suit. How would you like to be pre-judged the way you pre-judging Rafal? In Canada we have something called a constitution, and also a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I believe there are similar documents (that millions of men and women have sacrificed their lives in defending) in the U.S? Maybe you should look it up on the internet sometime!
In my previous statement I may have sounded quick to judge and I apologize for that. I too feel very strongly about animal abuse and am vocal about it. But I do also believe that a lazy, over-domesticated pet is more unpredictable than a smart, disciplined and well socialized dog, horse, or any other bred animal.
I hope this issue gets choked out quickly!

[Derbeno]

Sounds like someone decided to be Judge, Jury and Prosecuting Attorney.

I am from England and know for a fact it is illegal to keep, train, breed or trade certain types of dogs under the dangerous dog act. A lot of other European countries have the similar laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_Dogs_Act_1991

Someone else told me that Rafal sent further emails in an attempt to explain himself, but these were conveniently not posted.

[Chupacabra]

congaDR,
Now is the time to give up. Sending me PMs with your childish rants does nothing to further your cause.
Just to let you know, my father knows all about sacrifice as a WW2 veteran and so do I as a veteran of 2 tours in Afghanistan and 1 in the Persian Gulf - and you? Don't lecture me on this again.
As for education? How about you going to school to learn how to read, because you obviously don't understand what you've got yourself into here!
We're done.

[sazy]

Hello,
I am the Rafal from title of this thread. I have not answered the accusations made by CongaDr earlier because I did not want to escalate this into a primitive row. So far I have explained the case only to Abakua, the Administrator and those members who answered the first post By CongaDr. I realy do not think the Forum should be used for this sort of row. However, I see CongaDr refuses any appology and repeats his claims.

CongaDr says "that people who don't take a stand against people like this, are part of this problem, and need to look at their own responsibility to society."
I would suggest that instead of using vulgar words on the Forum and accusing me of things I have never done CongaDr should report the case to some organizations which could investigate the case. That would truly be doing something rather than throwing dirt. If I were involved in organizing dog fights CongaDr post on the Forum would have no effect as it would not result in any legal consequences for me. I have informed the Administrator about my address and name so it should be no problem to report the case to the Polish police or to some animal protection society like RSPCA (sorry I do not know any American equivalent of it but sure there must be some). Such an organization could contact their Polish counterpart and they could pursue the matter further. They could check everything on site. I only doubt whether CongaDr would then have the courage to admit the truth as it would mean nothing short of losing face for him.

In my previous mails to the Adminiatrator I did not threaten the Forum in any way becuase it is not the Forum or the Administator to blame for what happened. Nor did I say that I had made any language mistake because of which I was misundertood by CongaDr. Now again CongaDr puts this into my mouth. The quotation he repeats again is clear to understand.

He cannot see the difference betwen trainig fighting dogs and training dogs for fighting. I used the word sport because prior to the ban, obedience, protection and guarding training of dogs was a kind of sport. The Polish Kennel Club, which is a memebr of FCI and has always forbidden dog fighitg, used to organize competitions in obedience as well as protection and guarding work. Those were like sport events with judges, spectators, medals. Now, no breed placed on the list of dangerous/fighting breeds can take part in such events. Those dogs cannot even be trained on any courses organized by the Polish Kennel Club. As I wrote previously, we as a group of Central Asian Ovtcharka lovers managed to get the breed off the list and can train our dogs. You are absolutely right that a professionally trained dog can be controlled and poses much smaller threat that a big mongrel which has never been tought anything. The major issue here is not dog fights but dogs attacking people. Fighting breeds if not trained properly are a big threat to people. They have high level of aggression and if they are not taught to obey the owner and do not have the feeling that they have some role like protection or guarding to perform, and if they do not spend time with the owner on training session, everything may happen. Thus, the option is either train such dogs or annihilate all of them. I am definitely for the first solution. You need to see what results you can get through training these bright animals to appreciate and even love them. I am afraid CongaDr would not understand it. He should look into the eyes of a young healthy dog being put to death only because his breed is on the list of dangerous/fighting dogs and he/she has not been trained to control aggression. Utmost hypocrisy to claim it is the best what we can do for such animals.

Finally, I strongly reject CongaDr implying that thanks to me visitng the US I could have access to Western education and can earn money now (he wrote in in his PM to me) . Should I understand that Poland and education in Poland are second class and CongaDr is in a position to judge it? Very rude.

This is my lfirts and ast public post concerning this case and I will not respond to any further posts By CongaDr. As I said above I do not want to use the Forum for mud slinging. Could I thus rely on the Administration of the Forum to put an end to this defamation? I would also like to thank the members who supported me, both on the Forum as well as in PMs.

Best,
Rafal

[Tonio]

Tony,
Hopefully you didn't think I was sazy/rafal in disguise or anything. Its really weird having this thread w/ caption of private emails between you and sazy about my LP Valje's .

Just for the record, we have 7 cats PLus the regular visting skunks, coons.

T