Questions for All Bata Players - Bata Questions

[Berimbau]

Last year I posted this on a few other sites where it garnered much HEAT. My intentions were simply to test the waters with a simple anthropological questionaire on bata players and culture change. For some reason, it was assumed that I was hunting for bear rather than fishing for various opinions. Now so far FEW of you have opted to answer any of my questions, but that IS your perogative! It just seems that many of the restrictions on bata drumming have relaxed since my youth in NYC, or least that is what I've gleaned from:
1.) The commercial manufacture of bata drums by MANY different percussion companies.
2.) The public use and recordings of the bata drums for such secular musics as jazz and salsa.
3.) The ascendancy of both female and European bata players.
4.) Musicians playing multiple bata sets which are bugee corded together.
This all seems to be QUITE a change from what I experienced some thirty odd years ago!!!!!!!!!!
Now I do NOT play this instrument myself as I am FAR more into the Kongo side of things anyway. Of course I greatly respect the Yoruba and Yoruba-derived Cuban traditions, for in Cuba they are completely intertwined with most things Kongo. Back when I was a young conguero it was UNTHINKABLE for someone NOT so ordained to even touch a bata, most especially one that was fundamento. As I stated earlier, it is quite obvious that things have changed. It is also obvious that this is an emtionally-charged subject for some. Let me assure you that ALL answers and ALL posters will be respected by me.


Saludos,



Berimbau

[JohnnyConga]

Well I would say that the way "we knew it to be" back in "my days", the 60's was that , right, nobody would have thought to have touched a Bata drum, but over time of course, it has all changed. Keep in mind that the Cubans have been mixing the secular drumming of the Bata in their own forms of music, ex. Irakere...so I would say about mid 70's it started to open up and now u see how everyone wants to play A Bata drum,whether they know how or not....female Bata players is not a new thing either....their are at least 2 very well known all girl Rumba/Bata groups in Cuba today....there are some tribes in Africa where "ONLY" women play the drum .....the first person I ever saw play 3 Bata drums and sing at the same time, was a Cuban percussionist named "Joel" with a traveling "Tropicana Revue" from Cuba in Los Angeles back around 1983....the recording of Santeria music with Bata drums goes way back.....also the fact that I remember some "basement churches"(un iglesia de espiritismo) in the Bronx,that would have a record player there, and play Santeria records, rather than hire real players....also to "document" their groups in New York. I have at least 10 Santeria albums recorded in the early 60's by Julito Collazo- Justi Barretto-Onelio Scull, and others .from NYcity....did I cover it all?.....does this help any?...."JC" Johnny Conga...

[CIMARRON]

YO SOY OZAINISTA y PRACTICO IFA!!..BUSCA TU SENDERO MUJERES Y MARICONES NO TOCAN BATA. OTA!

[CIMARRON]

Este sitio da pereza!!!

[davidpenalosa]

Berimbau,
Let me add another factor to your list:

#5 Greater access to Cuban bata masters since 1980

For me, that’s what loosened up everything. For several decades the most knowledgeable bata players in the country were Francisco Aguabella and Julito Collazo. I’m told that they jealously guarded their knowledge. The 1980 Mariel boat flotilla was the beginning of a change. For the first time, North American drummers had access to other Cuban bata masters who were willing to show them EVERYTHING. Direct contact with Cuban drum masters in general led to the augmentation and correction of a lot of the Cuban genres which had been played in NYC since the early 1960’s.

The American bata drummers I knew in the 80’s also jealously guarded their knowledge. There was a lot of attitude around the drums, and I’m not speaking about protocol and respect. They seemed to think their knowledge of drum parts gave them a certain power and in a certain sense it did. The Cubans dissolved that power as they freely disseminated bata information. Beginning in the late 80’s I came into direct contact with Cuban bata masters who would fill me up with info until I could take no more. Instead of being starved for information, I seemed to be "drowning" in information. Nowadays, I meet young people who know all this stuff I had to work hard and struggle for. It’s quite common place for Americans to go to Cuba to study now, and before 9/11 Cubans were coming over here regularly as well.

Things change. For the past couple summers, I’ve had the privilege of playing bata, bembe, iyesa and rumba with Francisco Aquabella in dance classes. I found him very mellow and open, downright sweet.

Still, some things never seem to change, such as the one-ups-manship still exercised by some around the bata. That’s why I was not tempted at first to answer your inquiry. I’ve read a lot of ego crap on the Yahoo bata e-group, so I am not at all surprised to hear about the heat your questions garnered.

David

[JohnnyConga]

Julito Collazo, would NOT teach anybody about Bata drumming unless they were "in the religion", back in the 60's. It was a "no no". Yes I would agree since the Mariel boatlift, the Marielitos, found out that they could make money teaching Bata, so they did. There has always been the "machismo" attitude around the drum whether it's Bata or congas, which to me is an "archaic" attitude...yes u have to play like "u got a pair", but the attitude, is not necessary....but the ego is what it is at times, with some players, and they cant see the forest for the trees in it....."JC" johnny Conga.....

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Johnny,
This is purely second hand, but I heard that Julito Collazo did not teach initiated North Americans drummers until after 1980.

I don't credit "making money" as the single reason Cubans have taught bata in recent decades. I've had many Cubans volunteer information without any exchange of money. I interpreted their openess as a reaction to mine and other's earnestness.

My opinion is that the system of folkloric schools nurtured since the Revolution (especially the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional), codified the information and methods of instruction. Master folklorists from all over the island came to the Conjunto, taught other masters and learned from other masters as well. The sharing of folkloric knowledge was institutionalized.
-David

[Berimbau]

David and JC,
Thanks to both of you for your candor and the history lessons. The power and prestige that goes along with being a batalero would have to be extraordinary for some folks, especially if you're trapped in a third world economic situation, and especially in light of Gringo racism, and colonialist appropriationism. With little stake in the material world, why would a Santero give away their most valuable spiritual thing to a bunch of white wannabes?
Now I did know Julito back in the day, he was a great guy, but at that time I do not think it would not have been possible for me to study with him. As much as I continue to admire him, it really was a closed thing back then, especially for a white anthropology student!! You might get to go a bembe but participation was NOT encouraged. I think Julito DID eventually teach a few of my fellow honkies later on, but by then I was DEEP into the Brasilian thing. These days I'm sure that you can buy a "how to bata" dvd at Boogalu, Descarga, or maybe at Afro-Cuba web!! Things have changed! And speaking of that, onto our new friend CMoron - lighten up your wig or we'll all think that you're a closet case like Jerry Falwell.



Paz Y Amor,


Berimbau

[pcastag]

Part of the reluctancy to teach certainly was based on the problems the religion had surviving colonial domination in Cuba. Since it had to be kept underground I'm sure that only people who were "in" the religion would be allowed to be taought. The last thing you would want is the authorities to come consfiscate your set of fundamento

[davidpenalosa]

PC,
I agree that the oppression of the religion had to be a factor in the lack of openness surrounding the bata. There are also the traditional protocols, or taboos associated with the drums.

I’d like to make the point that as I understand it, Francisco Aguabella and the late Julito Collazo didn’t teach drummers in the religion prior to 1980. In the early 1960’s NYC bata drummers Markus Gordon, John Amira and Gene Golden had to learn by listening to records, observe Julito playing at bembes and decipher the Fernando Oritiz book. John Amria’s thorough book on the bata reflects this hodge-podge of sources.

Back in the 60’s, Julito played the iya parts on a double-headed Kenyan drum, while the other two parts were played on congas. That’s what you hear on a lot of those old Santeria LPs previously mentioned. You can hear Julito playing that Kenyan drum on "Obatala Yeza" from Tito Puente’s "Top Percussion". Julito played the iya part for the bata adaptation of iyesa, while Francisco simultaneously played the iyesa lead drum part on a conga. Like many US drummers, I studied and memorized Julito and Francisco’s recorded folkloric material.

I speculate that there was a certain economic advantage Julito and Francisco had in holding onto their information. For many years, whenever someone like Mongo or Tito wanted to use authentic bata, bembe, guiro (agbe), iyesa or abakua, they would hire Julito or Francisco for the session. In more recent years, Milton Cardona has been fulfilling that role. Now, I can think of at least a dozen SF Bay Area drummers who could walk in and do that. There’s also the largest number of Cuban drum masters in the US right now. It’s a great time to be a student, but I’ll always feel sentimental about the old days.
-David

[ralph]

I've done some firsthand research on the topic, specifically on the rumba/bata scene in NYC...i put the two together because really at least in NY they go hand in hand in most cases (not all)...yes many bataleros, in NYC in the 60's had no other recourse than to learn from the records and others who deciphered them...they were playing alot of guiros, but no bata really until the 80's, even though the first bata de fundamento were brought in the 70's
Times have definitely changed although some may say its not for the best...i remember a conversation i had with Ezequiel Torres over the phone about some bata...he was telling me that what upsets him most nowadays is that he'll see such ridiculousness as a tambor being played with non iniated drums, or that no one wants bata with traditional tuning anymore...he went so far as too say that we want to embrace inovation and modernity but we can't go too far..."next thing you know you'll go to a tambor and you won't even see bata just a tape recorder playing an oru...
and as JC stated earlier this has already probably happened...

Ralph

[JohnnyConga]

Hi David..your right about what you said, my experience growing up in New York, may have been a bit different from the west coast. I was there when guys were "begging" Julito to show them how to play Bata, and he just wouldnt do it, and yes Gene, Jerry G, and others had to go to records to try and decipher Bata sections. There were other "unknowns" playing Bata in NYC, Onellio Scull and Justi Barretto were two of those relatively "unknowns" at the time. Justi was known as a "rumbero" but I have records with him and Onellio Scull with Julito, and Patato playing a set of 4 Bata drums not the traditonal Cuban 3, in Nigeria they use 4 Bata drums. David want to chime in here on that?..."JC" Johnny Conga...

[davidpenalosa]

Hey Guys,
Ralph I know that Markus Gordon, John Amira and Gene Golden were playing bata (carved by Markus) for NYC bembes in the 1960's. There's a picture of the three with the carved set in the book "Salsa" pg. 59 (1989, Gerard, Sheller).

Johnny, I don't have a working turntable at this time, so I can't reference the exact LPs, but at least some of those Julito and Patato "bata" records had Julito playing that Kenyan drum I mentioned, accompanied by two congas. Markus told me that Julito's reason for this was that he didn't want to show the actual bata parts. It could have been just conjecture on Markus' part. I seriously doubt that Julito's use of four bata had anything to do with contemporary Nigerian practices. Which record is that on?

-David

[SkinDeep]

MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THAT IF YOU WANT TO PLAY A FUNDAMENTO INSTRUMENT THAN YOU SHOULD ALSO BE FUNDAMENTO! I WAS REAL SURPRISED TO SEE THE ABACUA DRUMS IN THE YORUBA ANDABO DVD.

BY THE WAY JC, WHAT RECORDS ARE THOSE? CAN YOU HOOK UP A LIST? THKS



Edited By SkinDeep on 1138230534

[davidpenalosa]

SkinDeep:
"MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THAT IF YOU WANT TO PLAY A FUNDAMENTO INSTRUMENT THAN YOU SHOULD ALSO BE FUNDAMENTO!"

me:
Has anyone suggested otherwise?

SkinDeep,
Why were you surprised to see the abakua drums in a DVD? It's not uncommon to see them in performances.
-David