BataMbira - Spiro latest CD!

[captainquinto]

there's someone to scream about every given topic - especially when involving politics and religion. we just take ourselves WAY to seriously!

BTW ... don't leave me hangin' - what else goes in that stew !! :p

[zaragemca]

Greeting, that's the situation I'm talking about Richard Groff, To captainquinto,..When all you have left to keep from your ancestors is the originality of the music for which they sacrificed so much blood,sweat and tears,you have to take it seriously,they were deprived of everything else.Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1115482725

[Richard Groff]

there's someone to scream about every given topic - especially when involving politics and religion. we just take ourselves WAY to seriously!

BTW ... don't leave me hangin' - what else goes in that stew !! :p

...well, you know that in the least it would have to contain mandrake and the blood of a virgin... :O


I'm not usually sensitive, and I can't say this one actually gets my blood up either. I guess I just kinda find it silly when a bunch of white people who have had their European culture stripped from them by commercialism like bleached flour, go take a few lessons on an instrument from an "exotic" place and then espouse some kind of "authentic" spiritual experience. I love african, latin and asian rhythms and incorporate them into my own (very) hard rock music, however I wouldn't ever claim they are authenic. I'm some white guy from New Jersey, so I make no claims to being personally insulted, but I wouldn't be shocked by someone feeling like they are watching their religion and culture trampled on in the drive to sell some records (whether the music is good or not). I don't see why a Cuban shouldn't be able to complain about it any less than the Europeans I hear complain about the Asian teenagers playing Beethoven like its been quantized on a sequencer. It is one thing to be influenced and create, and quite another to appropriate a group's cultural identity so you can make a buck. I don't think I'm prepared for any major debate on who has the so-called authority to do or play anything, but I do think bitching about it deserves a place in the debate...or have we gotten to the point that ANYTHING goes and no one has a right to say anything?

Don't mind me though, I'm one of those people who find sick gratification when white americans get taken in by money grabbing 3rd world 'gurus' and 'spiritual leaders'. I figure its payback for all the missionaries.

[GuruPimpi]

I wonder what inventor of a guitar, electric guitar... would say if he saw Jimi Hendrix playing like a mad man and burning his guitar? Would he sue him?

Jimi and others would give a .... for that?

Respect to tradition and to creativity, cause they both can easily connect people, don't let the lack of respect divide!
Many nations and cultures has developed their own rhythms, dances, languages and many of them are unknown to us, cause they were stopped, erased, forgotten from the face of the earth, but hey, nothing lasts forever, mainly because of the EGO trippin of powerful individuals - screw that, and again respect diversity and live and let live!

Primozz

[Richard Groff]

I wonder what inventor of a guitar, electric guitar... would say if he saw Jimi Hendrix playing like a mad man and burning his guitar? Would he sue him?

Jimi and others would give a .... for that?

Respect to tradition and to creativity, cause they both can easily connect people, don't let the lack of respect divide!
Many nations and cultures has developed their own rhythms, dances, languages and many of them are unknown to us, cause they were stopped, erased, forgotten from the face of the earth, but hey, nothing lasts forever, mainly because of the EGO trippin of powerful individuals - screw that, and again respect diversity and live and let live!

Primozz

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your reasoning. I for one am not in any way arguing against using anything out there. If music (or any art form) is put into a position where it is no longer "correct" to use, borrow, steal, develop, etc, then we are all banished to a world where creative music is a memory. I love the idea of learning bata rhythms and taking what moves you into the realm of something else, that's not what anyone here is arguing. What I think has been brought up in a negative way is when people who are non-believers, non-initiates, or not even part of a particular culture try to market their work as "sacred" or "authentic" with respect to the culture they're not a part of. Unless I'm very wrong, the Puerto Ricans who were great contributors to the NY salsa scene were VERY into folkloric and sacred cuban rhythms, but used them to help create a "new" kind of music. That is very different from (let's say for example) some american dude from Ohio flying to Mali, taking a few lessons for a few weeks and then coming home to make a career as an "authentic" interpreter of "African sacred music". Maybe the music would be cool, but then let it stand on its own. It sounds like snake-oil to sell it as what it certainly is not.

Beleive me, I don't take myself very seriously at all. I've had extensive classical music training and beg, borrow and steal all I can from whereever I like, but I don't misrepresent my music. No artist works in a vaccuum, but that doesn't have to mean that they can just insensitively insult people's beliefs in an attempt to make themselves seem more important.

PS-I don't believe Jimi Hendrix (from Seatle, BTW) ever sold himself as an "authentic" delta/texas bluesman, no matter how much he borrowed from Charlie Patton, Lemon Jefferson, Lightning Hopkins and Albert King. I don't know what Leo Fender thought of Jimi Hendrix as a musician, but I'd bet he liked cashing the checks from all those new Strat orders ...

[GuruPimpi]

Possibly not clearly stated but I didn't want to make any insulting statement, just feel the need to say, that i'm ignorant of Sacred Yoruba Music and singing, I saw Batas, never played them though, but I was just trying to say that music (it doesn't matter what kind) comes first out of an individual and his speaking of his reality through language of music; it's a language which connected peopl and still connects people. If i play indian tabla, I don't feel the need to play only raggas, i give myself in it and I don't feel any guilt cause I 'steal' some phrasing of some benares ragga. I understand Zaragemcas disapprovall when somebody is selling some music as Yoruba eventhogh it is not Yoruba, but generally you speak with your instrument whatever you like and you give it to others as that.

Peace and groove!

Primozz



Be free and creative, it's far from 'it's all been said and done!

[Richard Groff]

Possibly not clearly stated but I didn't want to make any insulting statement, just feel the need to say, that i'm ignorant of Sacred Yoruba Music and singing, I saw Batas, never played them though, but I was just trying to say that music (it doesn't matter what kind) comes first out of an individual and his speaking of his reality through language of music; it's a language which connected peopl and still connects people. If i play indian tabla, I don't feel the need to play only raggas, i give myself in it and I don't feel any guilt cause I 'steal' some phrasing of some benares ragga. I understand Zaragemcas disapprovall when somebody is selling some music as Yoruba eventhogh it is not Yoruba, but generally you speak with your instrument whatever you like and you give it to others as that.

Peace and groove!

Primozz



Be free and creative, it's far from 'it's all been said and done!

I'm with you 100%.

I often play with tabla players, and am interested in tabla in general. However, I wouldn't learn a few licks and then make a record with tabla accompanying some Bach's Mass in b minor and call it "The Sacred Music of India and Europe" :;):

[GuruPimpi]

Richard, that's it!
Geeez, I should start to be more clear with my english...

Keep the groovin'!

Primozz

[zaragemca]

Greeting to Richard and GuruPimpi,even in that subject,(Tabla),I have played in a Budhist Temple with Tabla,Darbukas,and Djembe,but I was called to do it,it was done under the supervision of the person in charge,and we didn't get out of the context,neither it wasn't mixed with anything else,(and I didn't make a CD's to make a buck).Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1115654607

[JohnnyConga]

With respect to all.....recording is a way of preserving the music we love, no matter what kind it is and how it's done. Now you may not like someones business practices, motivation, etc. for doing it the way they did, but WE ALL have that right, to play, record, perform, etc. Of course there are bad musicians, that make bad business, for others, but when it comes right down to it,it's about having the freedom to express yourself musically. Spiro's CD is not the first amalgamation of music/rhythms, its been done millions of times, in other genres as well....I wouldn't be so quick to judge without HEARING the CD first,and even after that it still boils down to what I mentioned above.....Freedom of Expression.......OK? me voy a rumbiar!.... "JC" Johnny Conga....



Edited By JohnnyConga on 1115743090

[JohnnyConga]

Vamos a RUMBIAR!.... "JC" Johnny Conga....... :;):

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[zaragemca]

Brother JC,are your following this topic?,we are not debating Freedom of Expression,we are talking about the Singing and Bata playing of an specific Religious Music,not somebody just playing Bata.If somebody really came to Cuba to learn and to go through the process of playing Bata for the ceremonial affairs,...he knows what is the 'Rule',and who ever is the teacher is 'RESPONSIBLE' for making that clear.Yes, there is amalgametion of rhythms,but I couldn't recall anybody playing Bata and singing in Yoruba and mixing it with something else,and the few exemples which were posted reflect the lack of knowlege to the subject.Also all the recording of the originals Yoruba Songs for the Orichas,have been copyright it by the individuals with the authority and jurisdiction to this project,so any new recording, or used of any part in the recording is a version, subjected to due charge if you are going to capitalize on it,(to sale it).Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1115769689

[ABAKUA]

Edited By ABAKUA on 1115817500

[JohnnyConga]

Zara nobody is arguing the fact that to play in Yoruba ceremonies you must be IN the "religion". I think your missing the point by being bogged down in the tradition. Plus Michael Spiro is IN the 'religion" and has been for many years. He is a "recognized" authority on Afro-Cuban drumming and Music. One does not have to have been born IN Cuba to be able to perform or partake in the "religious" festivities or participate. Also nobody has Copyrights to Lucumi music, it has been around for 100's of years, only the Orishas have that right....if you have done your homework you would know about "BATA-RAP" coming out of Cuba...NOW WHAT DO U HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT? Are u going to tell them that what they are doing is wrong/bad/disrespectful???...Now these are YOUR people right?.....Cuban-American..."JC" Johnny Conga....

[JohnnyConga]

Check out the DVD "Rumbon Tropical" to see "BATA-RAP" being performed.. Cuban drummers have ALWAYS "melded" rhythms and continue to do so, it is the "expansion" of rhythms that are constantly being expressed and developed in Cuba, EVERYDAY! and I dont have to be there to know that....I think u need a trip to Havana or Matanzas and check what there doing today......Texas maybe getting to you.....take a break....."JC" Johnny Conga.... :;):

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