Jesus Perez - okonkolo? - historical question

[davidpenalosa]

Hey Thomas,
I concur.
-David

[blango]

Thanks Thomas!

Alfredo, yes. I have to talk to John about this.

You know, im going to research this. I may even write a book about it someday. I get to hang with all these cats, might as well get the scoop so those in the future will know how it began.

I love being educated about my back yard by someone half way across the world!!

You are truly an incredible resource Thomas, more than respect is due.

Tony

[Thomas Altmann]

You know, im going to research this. I may even write a book about it someday. I get to hang with all these cats, might as well get the scoop so those in the future will know how it began.

Hi Tony: Do you know the "Introduction" chapter in Bill Summers' book "Studies in Batá"? Seems he has done a lot of your work already.

We may also wait for John Amira's article about the NY scene which should be in the process of editing right now.

I love being educated about my back yard by someone half way across the world!!

You are truly an incredible resource Thomas, more than respect is due.

I knew about Pedro Orta from a "Modern Drummer" interview with Bill Summers from March 1990. I learned about Videaux from hanging out with John in a restaurant one year ago. I guess that if somebody is in service for almost thirty years, this kind of knowledge just comes naturally with the time. And, wherever I have really made some research, I am indebted to the people who were right there (i.e. the Americas), like David, for one instance.

TA



Edited By Thomas Altmann on 1188811874

[zaragenca]

I overlook to mention that Papo Angarica and Regino Jimenez are part of the, (Nicolas/Miguel) roots,...even when Papo, did play with Jesus Perez...but later he,(Papo), dedicated himself more to the popular music than to the ceremonial playing.Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

Papo, did play with Jesus Perez...but later he,(Papo), dedicated himself more to the popular music than to the ceremonial playing.

Not quite sure what you are talking about. Papo Angarica is primarily known as a bata drummer. He has several CDs out, offering one of the most exstensive recorded bata repetroires available, including the egun toques.
-David

[zaragenca]

You see might brother David,what is having a wrong perseption this bataleros where doing the recording becouse those recording were making 'money',hard currency outside of Cuba,but in Cuba Angarica was playing popular music,he wasn't playing liturgical music.Dr.Zargemca

[tamboricua]

Dr. Z,

Cuándo usted se refiere a que Papo Angarica hacia en Cuba solamente música popular, se esta refiriendo a "Los Bosucucos"?

Tengo entendido que Papo Angarica durante los años 70 y fusionando las líneas del Mozambique de Pello El Afrokán y el ritmo Pilón de Pacho Alonso conforma la agrupación Los Bosucucos, pero dicho por el mismo el nunca a abandonado lo primero que conoció, los tambores batá y la música folklórica Afro-Cubana.

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio



Edited By tamboricua on 1189286532

[Thomas Altmann]

Jorge:

I was told the same story. For several years after the revolution, Cuban traditional musicians, as well as religious musicians of course, were having a particularly tough time. So they looked for popular band projects to survive, and everybody started inventing stuff like the Mozambique, the Pilón, Upa-Upa, Pacá, Songo etc.

Papo is such a heavyweight in the religion and in batá drumming that it's hard to imagine him playing popular music. But even in 2005, when I visited him for an interview, he invited me to a show of his band called Son-Yoruba or Yoruba-Son or something the like. I had other plans for the night, but it really added to the picture I had of him to know that he was playing "normal" stuff, too.

Thomas

[zaragenca]

brothers Thomas and Jorge,even before the, 'revolution', a lot bataleros were already involved more in shows in the Casinos and Clubs than playing ceremonial music,...after the revolution the music bands were proviting and sready wage,(per moths), and the opportunity to play in Cuba tourist places and to go out side of Cuba with shows and also the Carnavales where the was a lot of mony to be making..I didn't say abandoning,but remember I was there observing what was taking places and they were into shows than into ceremonial music.Dr. Zaragemca

[TONE74]

Do you guys mean "Los Bocucos" the band Ibrahim Ferrer used to be part of, they had a tight sound. Just trying to learn a little history. Peace

[pcastag]

I think it's important to remember that today in Cuba tambors are very cheap. Here in the US that's obviously not the case, but I could imagine that in pre and post revolutionary Cuba nobody was making a great living as a full time ceremonial drummer.

[Thomas Altmann]

I think it's important to remember that today in Cuba tambors are very cheap. Here in the US that's obviously not the case, but I could imagine that in pre and post revolutionary Cuba nobody was making a great living as a full time ceremonial drummer.

-Exactly, of course! That explains also Dr. Zaragemca's point.

Plus, what has become important today, Cuban drummers don't have a real chance to tour abroad as ceremonial musicians, and the bulk of teaching (foreigners) is still on congas and in popular music styles.

TA

[pcastag]

right, but the Drs. point was that they weren't playing much ceremonial drumming, my point would be they took on those other gigs out of necessity but their true focus was playing ceremonial music.
PC

[Facundo]

***sorry title should read Julito Collazo- okonkolo?***
Here's a question that came up. In US around the 60's existed a couple of percussionists (from Cuba) that we can call the pilars of bata in the USA. Francisco Aguabella in the west and Julito Collazo in the east (there are others but we'll focus on these two)...In those times if you wanted to learn bata resources were scarce, I know because i talked to many a tambolero who came up in NYC at that time and they reiterate that it was very difficult finding someone that would/could actually teach those rhythms...I also recall reading that Julito was primarily an okonkolonero and while i am not saying he could not play all three drums proficiently, its probably correct to assume that he contributed more to the guiro/bembe aspect, who did the NY cats learn from at this time? Julito Collazo? Frankie Malabe? John Amira? Gene Golden?....Johnny others can you shed some light on the subject? We know that once the Mariel boatlift happened resources became plentiful on both coasts...what about on the west coast, who was Francisco teaching? I imagine there were only a very select few individuals getting lessons from him at the time as well.

Ralph,

The dialogue has gone off in another direction and I am not sure if your questions was answered. I knew Julito very well and had many conversations with him about drumming, his back ground in Cuba and various religious topics. During the 60s there were no fully initiated Olubata with consecreated bata here in the states so guiro was what was played for bembes. Both Julito and Francisco came to the States by Kathrine Dunham to play for her dance troupe. After leaving her group Julito stayed in NYC and Francisco relocated to LA. Both were very active playing quiros although Julito was far more busy because there was a lot more Ocha activities in New York than on the West Coast in those days. Francisco, I believe, did more band work back then. Francisco's religous roots were from Mantanza and Julito's were from Havana.

In New York Jullito was the "man" for religious drumming. He was well known for his guiro drumming and his singing. He dad a beautiful voice and was most often the akpon and drummer in the group. That being the case, he was everone's first choise for ceremonial drumming and for recordings. Julito was a very serious person and was very careful with who he tought or shared information with.

During those times Cuba was on serious lockdown and very few people traveled to Cuba from the US. Bata was sometime that many had heard of but few really knew about. There were not many real recordings of bata except a single recording from Folkways records and one recording from Panart records in Cuba. Bata had a mythological air around it among drummers in New York at that time. However, it was John Amira, an American that broke the mold. He made his own set of bata from cutting various sizes of congas apart and turning the ends around to form the bata shape. He also studied Fernando Ortiz's documentations on the bata rhythms to learn the oro seco and the basics of the oro contado. John had also aquired what was very obscure recordings of bata which later turned out to be recordings of the National Folkloric Group of Cuba. His group began to play "abericula" bata for bembes in New York. His group became popular as an alternative to guiro. Julito then stepped up and started playing abericula as well. So you had two camps of abericula bata in New York John's and Julito's. Julito being Cuban was still considered to be the "man". John's work opened the door for many Americans. However, drummers who were interested in bata would go to bembes that were being played by both groups to learn.

Julito was still the person everyone wanted to get with to fully understand how bata was played and to learn the protocols and culture associated with bata. As that time evolved more signers came to New York like Olimpia, Alfaro, Domingo (?) and Jimagua which made it easier for Julito to play bata. To directly answer your question Julito was the king of Afro-Cuban folkloric drumming in New York until the Mariel boatlift brought a hold new wave of Cubans to New York, to most well known being Puntilla. Puntilla made his Ocha in New York and received consecreated drums in Florida and became the one everyone deferred to for Anya in New York. However, Julito was able to travel back to Cuba to make his Ocha but then went back to pass to Ifa before Puntilla's arrival. He settled in as an Oluo and devoted most of his time to working Ifa and did very little drumming after going to Ifa. There is a lot more to this history but I hope this answers your question about Julito.

Facundo

[ralph]

Facundo,

Thanks for replying, you have dropped some good first hand knowledge...I remember reading that Julito was primarily and okonkolero but able to play all drums...any insights into this?

Do we know who John Amira was playing with at the time? Louis Bauzo perhaps? Frank Malabe? El Flaco?

Also I didn't know John Amira constructed a set of bata? I heard Markus Gordon has done the same and probably later on, Pablo Landrum, where does Gene Golden fit into the scene, was Gene learning, playing with John.... I have done interviewing with Gene but haven't been able to sit with him again to pick his brain about how he started with bata. And I know Gene was around since the beginning...

Facundo, this Panart recording, would happen to be Afro Tambores Bata, Girardo Rodridguez record would it?

Puntilla fundamento come from El Negro Raymat's/Pancho Quinto's house?

PM me or reply in the thread if you like, I'm eager to know...



Edited By ralph on 1189625459