Jesus Perez - okonkolo? - historical question

[davidpenalosa]

Do we know who John Amira was playing with at the time?

Hi Ralph,
In the book "Salsa" by Charley Gerard w/ Marty Sheller (Whitecliffs 1989), there's a picture of the bata battery on pg. 59; Markus Gordon (iya), John Amria (itotele) and John "Windcloud" Montalvo (okonkolo). Markus moved to San Francisco, where he introduced the Bay Area to bata and founded the annual SF Carnaval (1978). Windcloud moved to the hills of northern California, then Maui. Gene Golden also played with these fellas, as did Teddy Holliday.
-David

[ralph]

Teddy Holliday! Thanks thats another name that I don't want to forget...the late Teddy Holliday...I got a chance to see his son Woochie play at a bembe and it was great...

[Facundo]

Facundo,

Thanks for replying, you have dropped some good first hand knowledge...I remember reading that Julito was primarily and okonkolero but able to play all drums...any insights into this?

Do we know who John Amira was playing with at the time? Louis Bauzo perhaps? Frank Malabe? El Flaco?

Also I didn't know John Amira constructed a set of bata? I heard Markus Gordon has done the same and probably later on, Pablo Landrum, where does Gene Golden fit into the scene, was Gene learning, playing with John.... I have done interviewing with Gene but haven't been able to sit with him again to pick his brain about how he started with bata. And I know Gene was around since the beginning...

Facundo, this Panart recording, would happen to be Afro Tambores Bata, Girardo Rodridguez record would it?

Puntilla fundamento come from El Negro Raymat's/Pancho Quinto's house?

PM me or reply in the thread if you like, I'm eager to know...

Ralph,

Yes, that is true about Julito. In one of our conversations he mentioned that he used to travel from Havana to Guanabacoa to study with Pablo Roche. However, once he started playing abericula here in the States he played the iya. Flaco played itotele and while he was alive Sonny Morgan played okonkolo.

John Amira's group was John on iya, Manny ( can't remember his last name ) on itotele and Ted Holiday on okonkolo. I had heard a lot about Markus Gordon from a good friend, Oladele, who had moved from Philly to NY but never met him.

Dele as we called was also a figure in this as well. He had made a set of bata even before Markus and John. However, he could not read music so Ortiz's works were a mystery to him. He learned by listening to records and by watching other players. However, playing drums was not his strong suit. He was a master craftsmen who could make anything from garments to drums. Dele was also a deep scholar and knew a lot about the Yoruba traditions.

Yeah, Gene was around from the begining along with Baba Femi, Pablo and others who were part of a very closed circle of serious drummers. Julito was one center of attraction and Markus / John were another. There is a lot to talk about regarding these time and the history.

The Panart record was Santero vol 1. Tambores Bata came a little later. Both were hard to come by back then.

Yes, Puntilla's fundamento was borne from Negro's drums in Miami. He and Negro were from Pancho's camp.

Facundo

[ralph]

Yeah, Gene was around from the begining along with Baba Femi, Pablo and others who were part of a very closed circle of serious drummers. Julito was one center of attraction and Markus / John were another. There is a lot to talk about regarding these time and the history.

Thank Facundo...now expanding on the Gene part of your response....who were his contemproraries...you mention a couple including Ritchie Pablo Landrum, Baba Femi....was Teddy Holliday associated with Gene on that level or did he come before Gene?...if there is even a time lapse...what about Pancho Mora...where was he in all this? What about guys like Totico, who apparently were in NY since the late 60's...if Totico was here since the 60's when did he get his fundamento, did he teach anyone? Or was he primarily a rumbero at that time...i know now he does mostly tambores and really no rumba at all...

[zaragenca]

The only part which I couldn't understand is the one making reference about Collazo being an student of Pablo Roche,becousehis date of birth, ht e time when Pablo Roche stop playing Bata,and thefact thatall those bataleros in Cuba do not remember him playing od studing with Roche,(but anybody could have observepablo Roche playing.Dr. Zaragemca

[zaragenca]

In relation to what I said about Papo Angarica and the others 'shows percussioniost', it was not their focus to play in ceremonial engagement...there were other bataleros which their focus were to play in ceremonies,(ones you get into the government schedules just forget about it they keep you busy among,schools,work places,Clubs,special presentations,Carnivals,rehearsals,etc),all around Cuba and sometimes out of Cuba too.Dr. Zaragemca

[pcastag]

Like my teacher Alberto Villareal Penalver. That's all he's ever done.
PC

[Facundo]

Yeah, Gene was around from the begining along with Baba Femi, Pablo and others who were part of a very closed circle of serious drummers. Julito was one center of attraction and Markus / John were another. There is a lot to talk about regarding these time and the history.

Thank Facundo...now expanding on the Gene part of your response....who were his contemproraries...you mention a couple including Ritchie Pablo Landrum, Baba Femi....was Teddy Holliday associated with Gene on that level or did he come before Gene?...if there is even a time lapse...what about Pancho Mora...where was he in all this? What about guys like Totico, who apparently were in NY since the late 60's...if Totico was here since the 60's when did he get his fundamento, did he teach anyone? Or was he primarily a rumbero at that time...i know now he does mostly tambores and really no rumba at all...

Ralph,

Yes, Ted Holiday was active with Gene and Pablo during that time period. Pancho Mora was a Babalawo who was very active with his Ifa work during that time. He was good friends with Julito and was the Babalawo that many of the drummers received their warriors from. During that time Totico was known for his rumba singing but later formed his own guiro group. Patato often played with him in his group. Totico received Anya much later (90 something) which is was a surprise to many because he never really played bata. I think Flaco is the primary drummer for Totico's drums at least that seemed to be the case the one time that I saw them played. My best guess would be that anyone going to Totico's camp to learn bata would be tought by Flaco.

Facundo

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Facundo,

thanks for the great info.

From my correspondence with John Amira I would tell that your Manny was Manny Ramos.

Greetings,

Thomas

[ralph]

Yeah, Gene was around from the begining along with Baba Femi, Pablo and others who were part of a very closed circle of serious drummers. Julito was one center of attraction and Markus / John were another. There is a lot to talk about regarding these time and the history.

Thank Facundo...now expanding on the Gene part of your response....who were his contemproraries...you mention a couple including Ritchie Pablo Landrum, Baba Femi....was Teddy Holliday associated with Gene on that level or did he come before Gene?...if there is even a time lapse...what about Pancho Mora...where was he in all this? What about guys like Totico, who apparently were in NY since the late 60's...if Totico was here since the 60's when did he get his fundamento, did he teach anyone? Or was he primarily a rumbero at that time...i know now he does mostly tambores and really no rumba at all...

Ralph,

Yes, Ted Holiday was active with Gene and Pablo during that time period. Pancho Mora was a Babalawo who was very active with his Ifa work during that time. He was good friends with Julito and was the Babalawo that many of the drummers received their warriors from. During that time Totico was known for his rumba singing but later formed his own guiro group. Patato often played with him in his group. Totico received Anya much later (90 something) which is was a surprise to many because he never really played bata. I think Flaco is the primary drummer for Totico's drums at least that seemed to be the case the one time that I saw them played. My best guess would be that anyone going to Totico's camp to learn bata would be tought by Flaco.

Facundo

Facundo... I went to a tambor once where Totico's drums were being played and Ted Holliday's son Woochie was playing iya, and Xiomara Rodriguez son Michel Sotolongo was playing itotele, and Ramin Quintana was playing okonkolo...I wondered if Woochie would be his primary iya player, but I don't know I get the impression...alot of the same bataleros play different sets of fundamento all over the city...like who does Gene play with now? I don't think Gene has his own set of fundamento although i could be wrong, I imagine when he doesn't play w/ puntilla, he probable plays Roman Diaz's set.....thanks for the info Facundo...

[guarachon63]

Hi Ralph,

Gene definitely plays with Puntilla. I talked to him over the weekend, we are planning to get together soon and I will interview him about some of this history...

If anyone has any questions for him they want me to include, feel free to drop me an email.

saludos
Barry

[Facundo]

Hi Facundo,

thanks for the great info.

From my correspondence with John Amira I would tell that your Manny was Manny Ramos.

Greetings,

Thomas

Thomas,

Thanks, you are quile welcome. Yeah, Romos that is Manny's last name! I could not think of it to save my life. He is a really nice guy. Unfortuneately he gave up playing some time ago after having a heart problem.

Facundo

[Facundo]

The only part which I couldn't understand is the one making reference about Collazo being an student of Pablo Roche,becousehis date of birth, ht e time when Pablo Roche stop playing Bata,and thefact thatall those bataleros in Cuba do not remember him playing od studing with Roche,(but anybody could have observepablo Roche playing.Dr. Zaragemca

Z,

You and I have been through this before. I find it strange that you should mention his birth date not knowing him. For the record, Julito was in his late seventies when he passed away. But that is neither here nor there. I will not debate with you him studing bata with Pablo. That's what he personally told me and considering how serious a person he was I have every reason to believe him. However, for the benefit of those who were not part of the dialogue about this before I will repeat another fact about him.

There was a film called Yambao that was also called "Young and Evil" in the english sub-titled version. Understand this movie was distrubuted as an art film in the US because of the sex seans althouh today it could play on Amrican TV. I am not sure when the film was actually made but I followed the movie around the city back in the early 60s. The plot was corne ball to say the least but time frame was set in Cuba during slavery. However, the drumming was something from another world! The singers were Ceilia Cruz, Mercedita Valdez and Luis Satamaria (Mongo's cousin) just to name a few. I don't know who all of the drummers were but Trinidad Torregosa was one of them. Jultio was about 17 years old when the movie was made and he played the guataca in one of the seans. This tells me that he traveled in very elite company during his early years in Cuba. Who are the drummers that "you" are saying they don't remember him?

Facundo

[guarachon63]

Facundo wrote:

There was a film called Yambao that was also called "Young and Evil" in the english sub-titled version. Understand this movie was distrubuted as an art film in the US because of the sex seans althouh today it could play on Amrican TV. I am not sure when the film was actually made but I followed the movie around the city back in the early 60s.

Gene told me similar stories about that film, how he went to see it again and again and they used to sneak in a reel-to-reel to record the music. Those were the days. I picked up a copy for him on DVD here.

[Facundo]

Gene told me similar stories about that film, how he went to see it again and again and they used to sneak in a reel-to-reel to record the music. Those were the days. I picked up a copy for him on DVD here.

Hey Man,

Thanks!!!! I've been looking for this film for years. I did the same thing that Gene did but I used a cassette recorder. We followed the movie every place it played in Philly.

Facundo