Yoruba BATA

[zaragenca]

Ok brother Facundo,whenever something like this heppened you always try to call scholars name, instead comming with you own research, now tell in Yorubaland which were the villages worshiping that Oricha up to 1936,(before the Old Oyo have to run down to the Yoruba territory after the Fulanis Muslims pushed them out),...have you ever observed (as I did), what kind of drums they were using in the Old Oyo/....What is the real name of that Oricha which is called Shango?... who were the members of the Ifa or ceremonies/officers in the Old Oyo?.... which was the name of the society in Nigeria which developed the Batas/drum?...When was the first Shango/ceremony in Cuba and which were the participants?....To debate with me you need to know this in first place.Dr. Zaragemca

[ralph]

I know that the above was not directed to me personally....sorry...Z...let me get this straight you are calling Facundo out because he gives credit to scholars and researchers who have studied the musical/cultural development of afrocuban/african/Ocha music...from the 1900's till now, and find fault in the fact that he probably couldn't have observed these things taking place because he most likely was not even born...how old are you Z? Are you serious?!....oye its a good thing that you live in some cave somewhere in Texas playing with bands that only you know exist, and teaching a legion of people (master drummers no doubt) that no one else here knows about because otherwise....we'd have to call this jerryboard, instead of congaboard...



Edited By ralph on 1193087157

[blango]

I have a friend who is Yoruban, in what used to be Yorubaland. He just emailed me from southern Benin to tell me the story that was told to him as a child about Shango - very similar to the stories i have heard from Cubans. its the same god with a similar story and the same areas of 'interest'.

- personal research -

Tony



Edited By blango on 1193087699

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... chango.jpg

[davidpenalosa]

By fixed I meant a certain rhythm that is specific to it.

Tone,
I don't want to give the wrong impression. The lead drum for guiro (agbe) is "fixed" as you defined the term. However, the stylisitic approach has over time, evolved since the rhythm was first recorded half a century ago.
-David

[TONE74]

Thanks for clearing that up. As soon as I heard quinto I thought about improvisation.

[zaragenca]

Ok ansewring to Ralph,yes there are some scholars which have been study the culture for some time,but as it happened,(even Dr. Fernando Ortiz), were continuing wrong concepts becouse he was following other scholars studies which were observing meny things with different mentality than the african mentality and setting their own conclusion,Dr. Ortiz didn't get meny things right until he started listening more to the interpretation of the afrocuban,and stop trying to observe and to come with their own conclusion,what I said is base on facts with I always exposed,my article 'Oyo by Zaragemca',is based on facts with dates,names,places, ..I didn't started this last week neither I was always looking for facts to many rumors which I was confronted when I was in Cuba.Dr. zaragemca

[OLSONGO]

Dr. Zaragemca,
As much as I would like to offer my respects to you and your knowledge, but I find it difficult ; because in most cases I have a hard time understanding in between the bad grammar and spelling. So I recommend that you work on that in order to carry across good communication skills and be understood in what ever you are talking about.

Paz Olsongo



Edited By OLSONGO on 1193112783

[ralph]

By fixed I meant a certain rhythm that is specific to it.

Tone,
I don't want to give the wrong impression. The lead drum for guiro (agbe) is "fixed" as you defined the term. However, the stylisitic approach has over time, evolved since the rhythm was first recorded half a century ago.
-David

David,
the caja in guiro...(if speaking of chekere's and one conga soloing) according to you plays a contra clave motif...previously you stated that the caja used to play a more "con clave" motif...when did this change take place as far as you can tell?....in its improvisations...does the caja hit on one...or avoid hitting on the first beat of clave? I was just wondering...as the caja in PALO, does hit on one....but then we are talking about to different rhythms here.

[davidpenalosa]

As soon as I heard quinto I thought about improvisation.

ATTENTION MODERATOR, I MISTAKENLY SENT DUPLICATE MESSAGES ("dplct"). I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DELETE THEM. SORRY.
(Sorry for continually being OT here too)

Tone,
I'm not sure we are on the same page yet. All lead drum parts have a vocabulary consisting of certain specific patterns. Improvisation is an integral part of all the lead vocabularies I've encountered from Africa to Cuba. That includes the liturgical phrases of the iya (lead) bata.

Rumba quinto is no exception. Quinto has a specific part, consisting of two main modes, but because of its many permutatuions and other factors, it's often misunderstood as an "anything-goes" drum.

Ralph,
The caja in guiro replicated the vocabulary of the bembe caja, although instead of stick-and-hand, it of course, used both hands and employed mutes.

The first time I heard the contemporary style of guiro caja was on Milton Cardona's record "Bembe" in the 80's. The rest of the record consisted of bata, but this one cut was an Arara song accompanied by chekeres and a conga. To me it sounded much more like abakua bonko than caja. I didn't know what was going on.

Then in the late 80's I met some members of the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional de Cuba in Mexico and they were playing the caja in this new, contra-clave style. My best guess is that the contra-clave style of guiro caja first emerged in the 1980's.

The most fundamental stroke of the bembe caja, like the palo caja is beat 1 (1st stroke of clave). This is the most common 6/8 lead drum motif I've encountered (Cuba, Brazil, Africa, etc). Traditional bembe caja will also play bombo (2nd stroke of clave) with, or instead of beat 1, depending on the regional style involved.

The contemporary style of guiro caja does not play beat 1 very often, or does not play beat 1 at all. Check out Miguel Bernal (lead drummer for Raices Profundo) on "Agbe" from "Drum Jam" on itunes (99 cents).
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1193167177

[TONE74]

[quote]Quinto has a specific part, consisting of two main modes, but because of its many permutatuions and other factors, it's often misunderstood as an "anything-goes" drum.

Thats exactly it. when I read quinto I first thought that the player just played whatever, but I do understand what you mean.
Compared to the other drums isn't quinto the most active as far as improvising? So I guess thats where the misunderstanding starts on a rookies mind ( myself ).
I only been at this since march. I always loved the music but never tried to understand it until I started with the drums.
I wish they had a rumba section on the board cause I have a questions all the time. Peace

[davidpenalosa]

Compared to the other drums isn't quinto the most active as far as improvising?
I wish they had a rumba section on the board cause I have a questions all the time.

In a three drum rumba ensemble, the quinto is the lead, so it definitely is the most active as far as improvising.

If you were asking about other rhythms, the quinto in conga de comparsa is looser than rumba quinto. Solos by congas bongos and timbales in band music draw from a variety of sources and are looser than folkloric lead drum parts.

You should post your rumba questions in the appropriate section and see what happens.
-David

[zaragenca]

To the brothers David and TONE74,I'm going to prepare an article in relation to Guaguanco,I promise there are going to be things which you would hear for the first time.Dr. Zaragemca

[JohnnyConga]

The late Great Pablo Roche of Cuba....Johnny Conga..

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... lite_1.jpg

[zumbi]

the video is very interesting and at some point shows a drummer, not from the family group, playing dun-dun with the batas.
this drummer's name (alahaji) suggests he is a muslim and, for what i know dun-dun is from a family of talking drums introduced in modern day nigeria from northern nations of the hausa-fulani who are predominantly muslims.
i personally know several muslim yorubas that are drummers and play batas as well as other drums.
so my question is: was it in cuba that bata became a "religious" drum used to communicate with orishas because of its ability to speak the language while in yorubaland was "just" a drum?
any word from the distinguished panel of experts would be deeply appreciated.
peace & blessings!



Edited By zumbi on 1204321827

[davidpenalosa]

was it in cuba that bata became a "religious" drum used to communicate with orishas because of its ability to speak the language while in yorubaland was "just" a drum?

The bata are consecrated religious drums in both Africa and Cuba. In Africa the drums serve the role of surrogate speech. In Cuba, a lot of the language has been lost. The situation in Nigeria is a little complicated. Most of the clans that play bata have converted to Islam, but they still make money being hired to play for traditional Yoruba religious functions.
-David