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This is in continuation of the "ISLA BATA DRUM" thread in CongaSet and accessories:

There are several different perspectives on what is religious and what is fixed about the bata tradition and what isn't.

The basic agreement is that consecrated tambores de fundamento cannot be touched by people who are not initiated to Anyá, or have at least their "hands washed".
However, I know about at least two cases where this rule was broken, meaning that uninitiated drummers were encouraged to play a consecrated bata drum by an elder alanya (owner of a set of fundamento drums).

A drum like the Isla from the Ebay auction is not consecrated; it can never receive fundamento status, because certain features, like the metal hardware for instance, prohibit this. An un-consecrated bata drum is called aberikula. An aberikula drum is basically of the same status as a conga drum, or a bongo, or a snare drum; you can play a guaracha, a waltz or a shimmy on it, if you want; or you can use it as a table, a lamp, or a waste paper basket, if you are hard-boiled enough. Some conga drummers incorporate a single bata drum (mostly the iyá, the biggest) in their set-up, like Jerry Gonzalez (and yours truly, on occasion). In a Guarapachangeo style Rumba outfit, the batá have become a standard element, alongside conga drums and cajones. There are many examples for the use of the bata drums outside a religious setting (all aberikula, to my knowledge).
The critical point, however, is the fact that all those drummers who are playing the batá in a non-religious context have at least a basic knowledge of the traditional toques batá and an idea of the spiritual and historical importance that these drums embody. People like Papo Angarica or Octavio Rodriguez, on the other hand, are long past that; both of them own several sets of fundamentos, and moreover, both are renowned babalawos (high priests of Ifá).

Felix Navarro from Santiago (formerly of the Cutumba group) once put it like "although aberikula drums are not sacred, the toques and the cantos are sacred indeed". Arturo Martinez (of the Clave y Guaguancó ensemble) advised me to always rest my aberikula batá on the chairs (as opposed to the floor), as if the morphology of these drums already demanded a basic, Anyá-derived protocol. Orlando Fiol claimed that neither cantos nor toques were sacred, unless an Orisha would be entering a ceremony (in trance possession); before that, they were just liturgical music, like Christian church music. In fact, you can buy a lot of Lukumí music on records today, just the same as Christian gospel or choir music, or oratories and masses.

My personal attitude in this wide range of opinions, perspectives, and dogmas has gained shape on the way, although the new information did not change my original outset a lot. Whenever I perform a religious song or rhythm, I am always aware of its spiritual or ceremonial content. Always! This prevents me from inappropriate use of the repertoire at times or places where it doesn't belong. I knew from the start that I wanted to know as much as possible about the drumming, the rhythms, and about the religious background of the batá. But everybody has to start somewhere. So I listened a lot to recordings and read about Yoruba religion before I could afford my set of batá. By the time I bought my batá set, my knowledge was still close to zero point five. But I felt attracted to the whole world of the batá, and I have been studying their music for many years to come, I am still studying. It was like a call.
So, CongaTick, I don't think you have to know everything before you pick up the batá; you won't learn a lot unless you are inside practice, and with the respect you are showing, you have the best preconditions to get things right. If you feel the time has come for the batá, make it easy for yourself and don't get bogged down before you have begun. The material is difficult enough.

One last anecdote. In the Latin Jazz band in which I was playing (until last Tuesday, by the way), I was asked to play the big iyá batá drum for a tune. I found out that the rhythm for Orunmila would fit perfectly for that number. When I went home, I didn't feel too well about it. The next time I asked our band leader whether he wouldn't like to give the (unnamed) tune a title that would at least allude to this Orisha. He refused harshly, adding that he had nothing like that in mind, that he would give jacksh.. on religion on the whole, etc. I did not respond anything, but decided quietly to just improvise some BS on the iyá for him; if he esteemed any sort of artistic freedom ("jazz") over the sacred tradition of the batá, he should just get what he deserved. Hey, even Jesús Pérez is reported to have jammed on the batá!

TA

Thomas, that was a very diplomatic reaction, I will try and remember that example.

I am also becoming interested in bata. I am only interested in them for secular purposes.
I have my own religion. I would only ever play or own non-sacred bata drums, and I would never sing the
songs, nor would I attend a function of that nature. However I have no reservations about playing the rhythms.

My inspiration being the bata-rumba that I keep listening to and the secular bata recordings from
Mongo Santamaria now on the Afro-roots album

I think there are is a purely secular attitude to the bata that can be adopted without showing any
disrespect to the other aspects of the drum.
My teacher Carlos Aldama, who I hold in very high regard, freely distributes educational material on the bata rhythms and never says anything about how
someone should use it. He is of course, a venerated practicioner of the bata in all it's significance.

On a similar note Sandy Perez, another of my teachers performed a concert yesterday using Arara drums with
Yosvany Terry & the Afro-Caribbean Legacy. Don't arara drums have some special significance similar to bata?
This was a purely secular concert, they sang some arara songs, but in the context of piano and electric bass
I am sure there was not the same significance.

I think it takes not only the physical object, but the contextual setting and a belief system to give special significance to something
like a drum and the music played on it. This is of course just my opinion, for my personal musical practice.

To me personally, batas are just another drum that can be used for musical sounds. I mean no disrespect to others who feel differently about them, but this is what they are to me.

The older I get the more I realize how a bit of respect can go a long way. Knowing the little that I do about the Bata drums and the religious association that accompanies them, I would no more attempt to misuse these instruments or the rhythms they are used in than I would speak or behave in a blasphemous manner to a Christian or Jew, or any other person of religion.
This has been a learned experience from travelling to a few different parts of the world, some where disrespecting the people's religion can have very serious consequences.
If more people paid more attention to the virtues of respect and courtesy, the world would be a much better place!

Whopbamboom wrote:To me personally, batas are just another drum that can be used for musical sounds. I mean no disrespect to others who feel differently about them, but this is what they are to me.

Would you use traditional playing techniques? If not how would you play them without it being just a gimmick?

I don't think it's possible to play an instrument like bata with any degree of expressiveness unless you are using at least some of the techniques and toques that were developed by a certain people in a certain context....i.e. Ifa/ Regla Ocha....That is where you will find the techniques that make the drum speak... so personally I cannot see how they can be divorced from the culture they come from.

As long as the bata (or any drums!) are in the room, that elephant is in there with them in my opinion...even if nobody wants to mention it!

But of course everyone must make their own decisions in these matters.

It's plain to see for everybody how broad the range of viewpoints is on this matter; and like a million times before, religion-related issues arise so quickly and inevitably cause the most heated debates, that they are as rigorously banned as political discussions, and rightfully so. Even if all things, especially the arts, have a strong spiritual aspect, and although art undeniably has a political aspect, too! Finally, as it says, "religion is the politics of spirituality".

As to religion, which parallels real art as far as origin, intention and social function are concerned, I feel the duty to keep this thread in line, once I have started it. I hope that no one will feel patronized.

My reaction to the anti-religious attitude of my fellow musician could have been less diplomatic, if I had not understood his point. In these days we once again experience religiously motivated conflicts and wars, centuries after crusades and inquisition; so what is religion good for? Why not discard it altogether? Because it is one most natural and indigenous features of human spirit. German poet Hölderlin, in his book "Hyperion", says: "Religion is love of beauty." (How many artistic utterances are based on this feeling? How much religion is involved in the reception of art - any art?)

Some people say, there are many truths. I think there is only one truth, but there are many attempts to approach it, and many perspectives from which to view it. It looks different from each side. Different people with different philosophies, religions, scientific theories etc. could help each other out and communicate in order to complete or approximate a more comprehensive understanding of the universe, and of our existence. But what happens instead is the wielding of the stone age club.

I remember I was once traveling with a Brazilian dance troupe. While we were riding in the bus, somebody said that Candomblé sucks. They started to fight, right there behind the bus driver's seat. They had to stop the bus and settle the issue. It's true, "a bit of respect can go a long way." Respect, and tolerance, if I may add that: Sometimes I was surprised, how soon I had already stepped over a line where I had not even expected it.

So even if I personally felt bad fooling around with Vodú or Santería drums or, let's say, an Asian temple gong, I tend to accept and support someone else's light-hearted artistic playfulness. It has its own kind of creative potential. It may incorporate a special kind of beauty that I love (Hölderlin's "religion"). Surely, it may also produce insignificance. Then I don't have to listen to it. There's a lot of music I won't listen to.

I like to conclude this post with another quote from another German poet: Johann Wolfgang Goethe. I will try my best and translate it in English:

"One who possesses either science or art, needs not have religion; but one who lacks both of these two, should have a religion!"

Thomas

Hi Thomas, long time no talky

You may have crossed the Rubicon on this one.

Interesting quote, (or translation) from Goethe
A personal dissection:

"One who possesses either science or art, needs not have religion….”
They have the ability to make an informed choice in regards how they manifest the expression of their perceived spirituality.

“ ….but one who lacks both of these two, should have a religion!"
These are generally the stone age club wielders.

Might I add my own modern adaptation
"One who possesses either science or art, needs not have religion; but one who lacks both of these two, should make an effort to be educated !

Thomas wrote
“I was asked to play the big iyá batá drum for a tune. I found out that the rhythm for Orunmila would fit perfectly for that number. When I went home, I didn't feel too well about it. The next time I asked our band leader whether he wouldn't like to give the (unnamed) tune a title that would at least allude to this Orisha. He refused harshly, adding that he had nothing like that in mind, that he would give jacksh.. on religion on the whole, etc. I did not respond anything, but decided quietly to just improvise some BS on the iyá for him; if he esteemed any sort of artistic freedom ("jazz") over the sacred tradition of the batá, he should just get what he deserved.”

Regarding the above quote...
A bit OT, but relevant to the discussion.
I was wondering if you could venture your thoughts on Ray Charles.

He grew in the southern gospel music tradition (matter of fact, attended the St Augustine School for the Deaf & Blind, right in my home town, where he learned to write music).

A number of his hit songs used gospel themes with racy lyric content (for the time). He took a lot of criticism for blasphemous use of sacred melodic themes(from the gospel tradition)incorporated into secular/commercial music.
Ray was unapologetic. He felt that the gospel music tradition was part of him, and his musical development, and that using those themes in his compositions was a natural evolution of his unique style.

Any thoughts?

Back to Bata
Me = .000001 BKQ (bata knowledge quotient)

I was trying to make a similar point that Joseph made about Ray Charles, the last few times I have seen
bata played live was in a secular environment, and it's usually by very respected people
in the tradition.

Last time was John Santos with Omar Sosa. John Santos played 3 bata simultaneously to
accompany Omar's jazz ensemble.

The time before that was Francisco Aguabella at Yoshi's, with his jazz ensemble.

Of course they used drums made by LP or someone.

These 2 guys have serious credentials as musicians and in the bata tradition as ceremonial bataleros.
So is it only people with traditional credentials that can bring the bata into the secular? I personally don't think so.

John and Francisco must know that these secular performances are some peoples only intro to bata, and they must
also know that musicians will follow their example of playing these drums in secular settings without becoming ceremonial
practicioners.

In effect these ceremonial practicioners are themselves promoting the secular use of the instrument.

Hi Joseph,

You may have crossed the Rubicon on this one.

Oh, I was trying to stay on this side actually (the topic). Well, speaking of "stepping over the line" ...

“ ….but one who lacks both of these two, should have a religion!" - These are generally the stone age club wielders.

I'm afraid you are right.

... but one who lacks both of these two, should make an effort to be educated !

I guess Goethe was already kind of disillusioned when he said that. Obviously he did not hold religion in high esteem when he said: "Belief is not the dawn, but the end of understanding." (My translation; the original German word for "understanding" is "Wissen", which also means "knowing" or "knowledge". The original Word for "belief" is "Glaube", which can also be translated as "faith".) But he couldn't wait for the simple man to gain deeper insight in the mysteries of our existence in order to derive his ethics as a side effect. I think he wanted to get off quickly by throwing some commandments at the masses, and hold them at distance in order to care about his art (poetry) and his science. He was probably the last universal scientist in history. He stood in the great tradition of a holistic science that took its inception when science and religion were still one and the same, a science that was kept secret in the beginning (occult science) and has given birth to Hermetics, Qabbala and Alchemy. I think this has to be seen as the background for his suggestion.

Ray Charles, yeah ... The first thing that comes to my mind is that I don't have a single record of him, although I should. I mean, I enjoy his music. I don't have a record of Billie Holiday, either, and she was - well, great doesn't say enough. Perhaps their singing styles are so individual that I can't take too much of them at a time.

I think that it's problematic to compare religious drumming from Cuba to U.S. American spiritual music in more than a general way, due to the fundamentally different cultural and religious history of the Afro-American and Afro-Cuban people. Ethnic traditions couldn't be preserved in what is the U.S.A. today as much as they were maintained in the Cuban cabildos, palenques etc. Ethnicity and tradition ("roots") were something the U.S.-American black people were constantly searching and longing for in order to define their identity. Partly they seemed to grab anything they could find, partly they founded their own American traditions that they could relate to. The "standing-on-the-shoulders-of-our-ancestors" motif repeatedly rang in my ears during my study of jazz drumming. Gospel music is certainly one of the Afro-American traditions that, in a way, parallels an Afro-Cuban toque de santo rather than a European Christian service. But perhaps the ethnic identity is better confirmed by a drum addressing an Orisha than an organ, a tambourine, or a jazz band accompanying songs to Jesus. Hey, what am I talking about? I'm sure we have some Afro-American on this board who can describe the situation first-hand! I was only trying to understand ... I am just a pale-faced European egghead!

In my effort to understand Afro-American culture, I got hold of a book called "Black Talk" by Ben Sidran (recommendable). The leitmotif in this book is what the Sy Oliver/Jimmy Lunceford song said: "T'aint what you do, it's the way how you do it". The blacks in the U.S.A. could play marches, polkas, shanties, waltzes, whatever. What the white man failed to recognize was that the core message was/is not communicated in the song material, the lyrics etc., but in the specific way in which this material is performed. In this sense it doesn't really make too much of a difference whether Ray Charles sang "Oh Jesus" or "Oh Baby". "Oh Baby" offered the additional advantage to feed him pretty well. So much about the particular situation of the Afro-American musician in the U.S.

The emancipation of the bata drum and its repertoire from exclusively ceremonial use has a history that goes back to Jesús Pérez' public performance in a lecture held by Fernando Ortíz in the year 1936 (or '37). Katherine Hagedorn described the stepping-out of Lukumí music from afrocubanismo to an element of Castro's Cuban national culture in her book "Divine Utterances". I can't reiterate it all here. Anyway, it's a completely different story, in a different country, with a catholic background. When Arsenio Rodriguez incorporated Afro-Cuban text in his songs, he became a celebrated star. (Think of "Popo pomí" ! That's strictly ritual, period.)

If somebody realized today that I incorporate Afro-Cuban bata and Bembe elements in a Jazz drum solo, I don't think that anybody would resent me for doing that.

Thomas

Hi BNB,

In effect these ceremonial practicioners are themselves promoting the secular use of the instrument.

I believe we are past that discussion. I hope you don't think I am against any secular use of the bata drum. That would be ridiculous. Also, I'm sure you know as well as John or Francisco what to perform where and when. Follow your heart ...

During my "career", I have played the worst music in the worst places, and one of the most horrible scenarios that I can visualize is a school band trying to sing cantos lucumí out of my book in a loud and smoky bar, between "Tequila" and "La Bamba", and some drunken redneck makes his way to the stage and requests "Country Roads". Know what I mean?

TA

Thomas Altmann wrote:Hi BNB,

During my "career", I have played the worst music in the worst places, and one of the most horrible scenarios that I can visualize is a school band trying to sing cantos lucumí out of my book in a loud and smoky bar, between "Tequila" and "La Bamba", and some drunken redneck makes his way to the stage and requests "Country Roads". Know what I mean?

TA

This scene will appear in the forthcoming Cuban remake of The Blues Brothers....complete with a chicken wire grill in front of the stage.

Hi Thomas,

statements of great poetrists often have some range for interpretation, so maybe I am allowed to add an other aspect to
"belief is not the dawn/beginning , but the end of all (intellectual) understanding." ( Glaube ist nicht der Anfang, sondern das Ende allen Wissens).
Goethe also said " Das schönste Glück des denkenden Menschen ist, das Erforschliche erforscht zu haben und das Unerforschliche zu verehren." The most beautiful fortune of a thinking man is to have explored what can be explored and to adore/worhip that what can not be explored. In this sense ratio and spirituality do not necesseraly contradict each other.

Best regards,

Amber

Thomas said
I think he wanted to get off quickly by throwing some commandments at the masses

You do have a way with words!

Thomas said
I think that it's problematic to compare religious drumming from Cuba to U.S. American spiritual music in more than a general way, due to the fundamentally different cultural and religious history of the Afro-American and Afro-Cuban people.

I agree with the above and appreciate your view on it.

You’ve given me food for thought for some reading.
Bought “Black Talk” & “Divine Utterances” on Amazon….books are quite cheap when bought used.
In both cases readers either loved or hated both of those titles.
It’s amazing to read the reviews with such polar opposite interpretations.
“Black Talk” has Ray Charles on the cover! (among others).
In addition I bought “ Blues People - Negro Music in White America” by LeRoi Jones, which is highly praised in the reviews,as well as "Nationalizing Blackness: Afrocubanismo and Artistic Revolution in Havana" by Robin Moore
The combination of these 4 ought to help put pieces of the puzzle together.

... pale-faced European egghead(s)!"

Many venerable traditions were promulgated by this specific group.

When Arsenio Rodriguez incorporated Afro-Cuban text in his songs, he became a celebrated star."

He was validating what the Cuban underclasses already knew, by bringing it to the forefront in popular music.

the forthcoming Cuban remake of The Blues Brothers"

“Los Hermanos Azules”

The most beautiful fortune of a thinking man is to have explored what can be explored and to adore/worhip that what can not be explored"

I beg to differ…ANYTHING can be explored

~Joseph

Coco:

I loved your Blues Brothers comment!

Amber:

Thank you for the additional Goethe aphorism. He seems to embrace the religious feeling but detests beliefs and religious confessions. A good starting point, I find!

Joseph:

You do have a way with words!

- But actually I can also be quite nice, sometimes.

Man, 4 heavy books! That'll keep you away from the computer for a while! Please let me know how you liked them. True, I read "Black Talk" maybe in 1986: To me it was a revelation back then. I did not like Hagedorn's book at first, though. It describes the facts, but her conclusions, visions, interpretations I was searching in vain, which I found somehow disappointing. It read like something between a brave master thesis and a travel report; it really made me feel like an American tourist (sorry guys, German tourists aren't any better either, but in a different way). Nevertheless - presently it is the book on the subject, and one cannot ignore it's importance as such. I should also read LeRoi Jones's book one day. I will, after having read Chernoff's book. Don't tell anyone that I have never read Chernoff!

You know, what came to my mind this morning was that the Ray Charles case might well be comparable to bringing out the bata drums to public performances. If the religious content of Gospel music lies more in the interpretation than in the actual song material (according to Sidran), the transplantation of the Gospel singing style into popular ("Soul") music must indeed have appeared heretic.
Anyway, time has overtaken the critics. Some developments are inevitable. And you know what? I suspect that a lot of that eventually boils down to a power contest. Had it not been for authorities like Jesus Perez (or Ray Charles), the movement might have been stopped and condemned right there, at the first attempt. So be careful out there, BNB!

I beg to differ…ANYTHING can be explored

- with doubtful success ...

Thomas

I beg to differ…ANYTHING can be explored

- with doubtful success ...

Maybe....but open to the possibility of it.

Following is a quote that make sense to me:

"In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true either is true or becomes true within limits to be found experimentally and experientially. These beliefs are limits to be transcended."
The Center of the Cyclone by John C. Lilly

Back to Bata...as the sun sets over the Rubicon.