BATARUMBA DOS

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Postby Isaac » Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:28 am

Well it's been more encouragement than
critiques so far, but that's alright too. Even in a live setting,
no one will walk up to you with a critique strait away( i think ) It may be easier to be objective online after listening
to a piece a few times. I notice my left hand was slowing down on a piece I recorded (drunken sailor) and learned
this only by listening to it a few times.

Isaac
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Postby zaragemca » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:40 pm

To all the brothers in percussion; first, the Arara-patterns which I'm talking about was one the controlling percussion patterns,(with some Yorubas influences),in West Africa since the time of the Guinean Empire,( Rome Empire),specially becouse it was part the drumming pattern they would use in time of wars,(a psychologic weapons),then it was called Arara-Ewe, for the assimilation of others tribes,and Arara-Fon,(with the assimilation of the Ashanties),that is the country now called, Ghana...To Issac the culturization of the Europe,(Spain),is not just Muslims,the culture was established before with the assimilation of Turkey-Arabia,the Muslims incorporated it becouse it is the country were Mohammad was developing his thinking,(Mecca.Medina,etc),so the languages,the way of dressing,the way of singing,etc., was already a culture in that part of Arabia, later incorporated by the followers of Mohammad,(Muslims)...The trade of East Africa slave started before the trade to the caribbean,but IT WAS NOT SOUTH BOUND,but to the north to Egypt were Haussas,Nubias,and Abyssinians were transported for the building of the famouse Pyramid,(in case somebody thought that they were made with union labor paying wages),and also to the Persian and Arabia, and some of them to the Rome Empire,(as worrior and slaves)...The trade to the Caribbean was conducted from the West-Coast,(Ivory Coast,Dohomey and what is now called Lagos,(Nigeria)...Mozambique,didn't exist as a country at that time, that name took place after the independization of that portion of Africa...The Africans have been exposed to the cuban music since 1930's becouse the recording made by U.S., and England at that time, (of the cuban-bands), were sold in Africa as Havaneras,and Rumba Caribena.Also since the mid 60's to still now,cuban bands have been performing all the time in Africa,and african students from the Congo,Guinea,Ethiopia,etc., have been going to study to Cuba..I was talking with them all the time. I have done my homework to know about my ancestors,and they are the one who could come with the true.Dr.Zaragemca



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Postby niallgregory » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:16 pm

Spoke to a friend of mine recently about his research into the origins and development of rumba in cuba.He spoke to many top rumberos from both havana and mantanzas about there opinions about its roots.I was surprised to learn that some of the rumberos asked where 100% convinced that rumba is of spanish decent.
These where rumberos of african decent who play with top groups in cuba.Wont say who they where on the internet.This stuff should be published in a book at some stage.I found this very interesting.
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Postby davidpenalosa » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:19 pm

niall gregory:
"I was surprised to learn that some of the rumberos asked where 100% convinced that rumba is of spanish decent."

me:
It's obvious that rumba singing contains both Spanish (Spanish language) and African (call-and-response) influences. I think someone would be hard pressed to identify any Spanish influence in the percussion of rumba.

-David
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Postby niallgregory » Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:41 pm

Hi David,
I would whole heartedly agree with you.The rumberos in question where quite opinionated about the origins of the clave being from flamenco.We all know its origins are from africa but there is a debate in cuba among some rumberos who think that rumba is alot more influenced by spanish rhythms than people think.Just pointing out that is a debate they are also having in cuba which i think is very interesting.
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Postby ABAKUA » Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:09 pm

Greetings Niallgregory..

Anyone thinking the clave is of Spanish decent clearly does not know what they are talking about..

I came across this a little earlier (note, this is not my thoughts nor opinion, just something I found in relation to this topic - source linked below)

Example..
The pan-West African bell pattern shown in Example 1, or something similar, existed during the 1700s

Image

This assumption is based on the pattern's prevalence today among many different African peoples covering an expansive area.

3. As new practices emerged from the combining of various African peoples in the New Worlds, new performance styles arose.

As the Clave inscription suggests, the performance of clave is a living and breathing tradition shaped by the performance practice of individuals. Each musician contributes to the proliferation and evolution of the tradition by his or her own subtle variations of feel and nuance. Over time, a subtle peculiarity or feel may become the standard, replacing an older practice.

Rumba Styles
Rumba is a style of music originating from African slaves and their descendants living in Cuba. Some of the oldest recorded Cuban rumba styles, such as rumba columbia originating from the small towns of the island's interior, are performed with a 12/8 feel, similar to musics where the bell pattern in Example 1 is performed. However, in rumba columbia the bell pattern or clave is slightly different from the West African bell pattern. Instead of consisting of seven strokes, the rumba columbia clave contains only five. (See example 2)
Image
In some Haitian musical styles, the rumba columbia pattern started on the third stroke instead. The reason for this reduction from seven strokes to five may never be known since it occurred before recording technology was available. It may have started with an individual variation or was the result of the fusing of two or more African styles.

Another later style of rumba, guaguancó, emerged from urban areas in a quasi 4/4 feel instead of 12/8. The duple meter feel may have been the result of the influence of marching bands and other Spanish styles often heard in the larger cities throughout the 1700s. The clave used in guaguancó appears to be an adaptation of the clave rhythm found in rumba columbia to fit the new metric feel (see example 3.) This pattern is most often referred to as rumba clave. The next step of the evolution came from a simplification of styles. The son clave, used in salsa, displaces the final stroke of the three-stroke measure of the rumba clave by one eight note.

Article posted from:
http://www.lafi.org/magazine/articles/clave.html

Another interesting article I read some time ago can be found here: http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/archives/Article11?EnMxpsPv;;223

Another interesting article on Clave by Rebecca Mauleon:
http://www.eijkhout.net/rad/dance_specific/salsa7.html




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Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:17 am

Abakwa ,
Thanks for posting those links to clave articles. I think "Clave: The African Roots of Salsa" by Christopher Washburne is an otherwise good introductory article on clave, with the exception of the following excerpt:
"Another later style of rumba, guaguancó, emerged from urban areas in a quasi 4/4 feel instead of 12/8. The duple meter feel may have been the result of the influence of marching bands and other Spanish styles often heard in the larger cities throughout the 1700s. The clave used in guaguancó appears to be an adaptation of the clave rhythm found in rumba columbia to fit the new metric feel (see example 3.) This pattern is most often referred to as rumba clave. The next step of the evolution came from a simplification of styles. The son clave, used in salsa, displaces the final stroke of the three-stroke measure of the rumba clave by one eight note."

Me:
An oft repeated belief is that the five-stroke 6/8 rumba clave evolved directly from the seven-stroke standard bell pattern. Further more, many believe that the 4/4 son clave was a simplification of the rumba clave; simplified in the sense of its sequence of strokes and simplified in the sense of morphing from triple pulse ("6/8") to duple pulse ("4/4") structure. This viewpoint, repeated in various versions seems to be a matter of speculation based on the types of music found in Cuba. Mostly I find that people who are mainly familiar with popular genres, with a limited familiarity with the folkloric genres make these type of speculations.

African music is expressed in 6/8, 4/4 and polymetric combinations of the two. 4/4 clave-based folkloric music did not morph from 6/8 clave-based folkloric music in Cuba as a result of European influence. There is 4/4 music in Africa. The patterns we call "rumba clave" and "son clave" exist in Africa. The seven-stroke standard bell pattern and the two five-stroke (son, rumba) clave patterns are expressed in either 6/8 or 4/4 structure, or sometimes in a combination of the two meters.

Son clave and the standard bell pattern are my choices for the two most archetypal patterns representing the "clave principles". The earliest recordings of guaguanco from the early 50’s document the son clave pattern being used in Havana guaguanco. Some Havana folkloric groups still perform yambu using son clave. The earlier guaguanco tumba and segundo parts made a melody out of the three-side of son clave. The quinto’s essential phrase is based on a displaced "son clave pattern". What we call "son clave" likely entered the son via rumba when the son traveled to Havana. Rumba clave probably first entered Cuban music via the abacua, which is the only transplanted drum system I’m aware of that uses the rumba clave pattern.

The 3-2, 2-3 terminology and concept was developed in New York City and I believe that the terms "son clave" and "rumba clave" did as well. Since the 1980’s I’ve been hearing interesting things Cubans say about these terms and concepts. North American and European students are constantly asking for clarification within these contexts.

In my own attempts to define clave, I’ve tried to address the music’s fundamentals in terms of musical events (beat cycles, strokes,) instead of notation symbols (measures, notes). For those of you who belong to the Yahoo Latinjazz e-group, you may want to check out a glossary of clave-related terms in the Files section. This was put together by several members, including myself.

-David
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Postby ABAKUA » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:00 am

davidpenalosa wrote:Abakwa ,
Thanks for posting those links to clave articles.

Mostly I find that people who are mainly familiar with popular genres, with a limited familiarity with the folkloric genres make these type of speculations.


-David

Abakwa ,
Thanks for posting those links to clave articles.


No worries, I happened to read these articles a few weeks ago and thought they would bear some relevance in this discussion.

RE Your comments in Clave discussion from the link in Christopher Washburne's article:

Mostly I find that people who are mainly familiar with popular genres, with a limited familiarity with the folkloric genres make these type of speculations


You are absoloutly correct there.
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Postby niallgregory » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:04 pm

These are both very valid points and the articles make very good reading.But i am just pointing out the opinions of some rumberos in mantanzas and havana about the spanish influences.I find it amazing that they are of this opinion but i dont think they can be dismissed outright.After all these are the guys who are maintaining and creating on new things within the genre of rumba and they have come to these conclusions for good reasons.My friend who interviewed these people hopes at some stage to publish a book on rumba.I think it will make very good reading. Niall.
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Postby JohnnyConga » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:51 pm

I am of the opinion that the Rumberos in Cuba(which ones? the old ones? or the new ones??) are in complete opposites in their thinking. Plus Rumba is played differently ALL OVER the island and everyone has their own opinion on it...ex also from Rumbon TropicalDVD when (I forget his name) explains the difference "rhythmically" between Havana-Matanzas and even Cardenas. So it's hard to really distinguish who is right about what and the "origens" of what they speak.....though there is a ton of information on the subject....my 2 congas..."JC" Johnny Conga....
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Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:23 pm

Hi Niall,
I would never dismiss outright what these rumberos said. I am always trying to learn more. However, without specific examples, I find statements like "the origins of the clave being from flamenco" to be nearly useless. Without knowing the specific aspects of rumba and the specific aspects of flamenco being considered, I am unable to ponder the concept. Their assertion does not ring true from what I know, so I am left with questions and no answers. I look forward to reading your friend's book.

By the way, I am in the middle of corresponding with Conor Guilfoyle. He says hi. Conor has been sharing his odd-meter "clave" inventos with me and I understand you have played some of them yourself. Small world!

-David
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Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:44 am

Hi again Niall,
Just a quick clarification; by offering specific aspects of flamenco and rumba, I meant something like: "the flamenco hand claps are the earliest known source of clave", or "the flamenco steps are ....", or something to that effect. Also, it's always great when someone can direct you to some recordings where you can hear the particular aspect of the music under discussion.

I read something somewhere which explained how the term "rumba" originated in flamenco. That's not the same thing as saying clave came from flamenco though. It's interesting to note that Rebeca Mauleon was an accomplished flamenco dancer and wrote her master thesis on clave and yet did not mentioned any connection between the two in either of her books (Salsa Guidebook, 101 Montunos).

The clave patterns (son & rumba) are but just two of the many two-sided GUIDE PATTERNS (or if you prefer KEY PATTERNS) found in African music and the music of the African Diaspora. They all represent the African rhythmic principle. According to C. K. Ladzekpo, what we call the clave concept or clave principle is found throughout sub-Saharan Africa. You might want to check out his website:
http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/~ladzekpo ... plesFr.htm

I know C.K. personally and can attest to his vast knowledge.

OK, this was more than a "quick clarification".

-David
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Postby niallgregory » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:09 pm

Hi David,
Again i agree with everything you said and i to would like some specific examples of the influence of flamenco on rumba.My friend who interviewed the guy says he was convinced about its roots and the spanish influence.I am meeting him soon for a gig and i will try and get the full story from him.Say hi to connor for me.We did some playing together in his group and we also had a jam on some guaguanco in odd times.Good fun.Hi J.C the guys name on the dvd is maximino.I had the pleasure of spending some time with them in cuba last year,Incredible quinto player.
Check out the Rumberos de cuba album if you can.Top stuff.
Cheers.Niall.
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Postby zaragemca » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:41 pm

Greeting to all percussionists,first the Flamenco is the residual of the Arabian-domination of Spain which last for several centuries up to 1400's,It started with the vocalization of the Gitanos,( which are decendants of Arabes), in which they would perform the daily story-telling songs which is the foundation of that culture,the clapping was incorporated to encourage the steps which were introduced after,( but that clapping is different than the metric of the African Clave),the guitar-riffs was incorporated after, to follow the verses of the songs.Everybody which was in Cuba and is old enough,knows that the slaves in Cuba have not access to the Flamenco dancing and singing,neither this individuals would mingle with the rumberos which were playing something which was judged in Cuba by them as Africanized and unworth it for their European Culture,I was in Cuba and knew about the Centro Vasco,Centro Gallego,Centro Asturiano,etc., where they were showing those Flamencos dancing and the clapping was different than the Clave...I was also,(I think blessed),of being born in Los Sitios,(which had fame throughout La Havana for its rumberos and Carnivals players,and I was RIGHT THERE,(in the House where I was born),every weekend in the jamming,with this rumberos,some of them comming from some other barrios,(neighborhoods), for the challenge,( this people didn't care about Flamenco,or Bolero,or Danzon,or Guaracha),they only care about rumba,( by the same token that there are musicians which only care about Rock,or Jazz,etc in the U.S.).It was the other way around,they have to fight for the right to play becouse playing bongos or congas,or any other forms of African patterns was prohibited by President Gerardo Machado,and some of then went to jail for keep playing anyway.This cuban debating about this don't know about their own history.(Dr Zaragemca,is a Master Percussionists from Cuba,and an authority in Afrocuban Music-Percussion,and Yorubas Culture).



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Postby JohnnyConga » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:43 pm

Hi Zara...do u have anything recorded that you can share with us? I'm really interested in your playing style....Mil Gracias..."JC" Johnny Conga.... :D
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