BATARUMBA DOS

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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby Tumbas » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:51 pm

OLSONGO wrote:All I can say, for all the talk there is no walk.

Tempo suffers and no swing, as I know how Cubans like it.

Paz
Olsongo


I agree.

But it's none of my business..

but I agree!

But then, who am I to say?
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influences from many parts of Africa: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mrclave » Mon May 21, 2012 7:07 pm

we always hear that the guaguanco has Congo influence, which i'm sure is true. but if people will study Yoruba music, they'll also hear that some of the palitos patterns, for example, are standards for Yoruba music, as well... You hear it in the sacred Bata repertoire, too, but for now please just:

Listen to the bells during and after the transition that happens during the 16:20's on this clip, for example...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7pm2g9 ... re=related
Last edited by mrclave on Fri May 25, 2012 5:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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"standard pattern" on BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mrclave » Mon May 21, 2012 7:15 pm

...and saying 6/8 is incorrect. the cycle has 4 beats. the complete pattern is not 2 bars of 6/8, which would be a poor translation between the oral and the written. of course we see it taught that way, just like some people learn to ride a bike using training wheels. doesn't mean it is the end-all-be-all.... actually how we write it is the least important thing (oral trad.!) until the moment people make it so important... in which case its important to think about it & get it right... 4 beats, not 2 cycles of 2 beats each... 12/8 not 6/8... You can hear it, among many otherplaces, at the end of Los Papines classic BataRumba "Esto No Lleva Bata" ..... {{please forgive me for not accenting Bata!! thank you...}]
Last edited by mrclave on Fri May 25, 2012 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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History (Hx) for BATARUMBA DOS (?)

Postby mrclave » Mon May 21, 2012 7:35 pm

asking master Rumberos for their view of the history is also very important, obviously! but at the same time, what about asking a professional american baseball player to tell us the history of baseball, where it came from, how it evolved over hundreds of years... that might or might not be their specialty, versus actually *playing baseball*...
Last edited by mrclave on Fri May 25, 2012 5:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby jorge » Mon May 21, 2012 10:14 pm

Wow, this thread has a link to a few 2008 videos of Dr. Z playing that I had somehow never seen.
Assaf wrote:possibly of interest to some members here, re the good Dr. Z:
http://www.youtube.com/user/hueroconguero

Those videos are of historical value to those of us who always wondered where the guy was coming from. Highly recommended use of 1 minute of your time. 20 seconds looking at each of the 3 videos will answer a lot of questions, assuming that is the genuine Dr. Z and not an impostor. Keep it down to 1 minute, you don't need more.
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Caridad-AfroCuba congas arrangement for BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mrclave » Tue May 22, 2012 3:39 pm

CARIDAD AfroCuba de Matanzas ARRANGEMENT FOR CONGAS ONLY
---Sandy Perez, La Pena, Berkeley. California, Summer 2000...

CARIDAD arrangement (partial)

I want to share with the community the SECOND of two Bata Rumba arrangements taught by Sandy Perez of
Afro-Cuba de Matanzas, at La Pena in Berkeley, California, summer of 2000.


Sandy did not address Bata at that time. Sandy okayed sharing this info, too! Here are flyers from this series of classes and from another at around the same time:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?cehqs4la925h7at
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?dl8b3yyfkcs4486
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tpopc4ca8ay6hkn

Sandy taught two Bata Rumba arrangements & said this one was for "Caridad." Any help figuring-out which Bata toques to combine with the conga drums would be very helpful, thank you!
=)

The notation will all line up if using a monoface type of font, so try doing a cut-and-paste & then using a
"notepad" type of program if things are not evenly spaced.

Thank you for your interest! What good is having all of this if I can't share it?





-- 1e&a2e&a 3e&a 4e&a --

| OOOO 2.2. OOOO 2.2. | "Quinto" is two drums. There is also a variation
| rlrl r.r. rlrl r.r. | where the higher drum plays all slaps. These two
basic patterns are interchangeable, although you
CANNOT "mix & match" tones & slaps. The "2"
represents an open tone on the lower drum.

| 2O.O .S2. 2.O. O.2. | "Seis por Ocho" is also two drums, "2" is the lower one.


| .MMM ..OO O..S .SSS | "Conga" is a single drum. Sandy said it was "an Iyesa"
| .RLR ..LR L..R .LRL | pattern, and he began it with the first slap. It is an unusual pattern, I know!



BELLS ("Imawa") are same as for the other example, which I'll post shortly, thus


| Lhhh Lhhh L.h. Lhhh | Single Low Bell "Imawa," set on the ground in front of
| rlrl rlrl r-l- rlrl | a seated player (use mouth vs. neck for low vs. high)

| X..X ...X ..X. X... | Single High Bell (also "Iwama") plays clave de rumba



Totally simple little straightforward groove, really, except maybe for the very syncopated "Conga" drum..... BUT SO POWERFUL!!!

hope everybody will ..... ENJOY!!!


(PS -- any help getting the formatting to use a Monoface font would be very helpful... It would be a much more effective post if people could see it line-up without having to cut, paste, and do it themselves.. Thank you!!!)
Last edited by mrclave on Tue May 22, 2012 11:29 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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abakua inside of BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mrclave » Tue May 22, 2012 3:49 pm


ABAKUA ABACUA ABAKWA

I want to tell everybody that the two interviews between Dr. Miller & Ene Ita are very interesting, profound, inspirational, and filled with great Abakua music! The Greenpeace interview was interesting, too, but not my favorite...

http://cubacalabarradio.podbean.com/

This is totally relevant to our topic of BATA RUMBA, b/c after all, Afro-Cuba begins this classic example in an Abakua before switching to Guaguanco, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CybEC0rQ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVATx1z-wwI

There are zillions of rhythms out there, and I may be wrong. Perhaps its just a Columbia variation. But something is going on...

ALSO, on the studio recording of Palo Yaya, I seem to hear a floor tom-tom playing what sounds like the Bombo part for a Conga (Comparsa, whatever)????? Sheesh, what a classic recording...

[[[any help with the toques? always appreciated, thank you!]]]

I apologize if there is already some Abakua discussion elsewhere on the forum.... As I explore the whole thing, I'll find it & then correct this post if it was put in the wrong place... Thank you...
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby jorge » Fri May 25, 2012 12:54 am

The first batarumba, the live Palo Yaya version, starts off with what I would call rumba columbia rather than Abakua, and then turns into a guaguanco matancero, then batarumba. In Matanzas they sometimes play rumba columbia with very strong Abakua influence, the quinto playing some bonko riffs on top instead of in the middle, they say it is not Abakua. Whether there is an actual secret ritual Abakua song or rhythm using those patterns, I don't know, but I haven't ever seen people dancing Abakua to it, or seen it taught as Abakua or heard it called Abakua by Abakua drummers. Other versions of Palo Yaya start off with Abakua. One never knows, do one? There is no bombo drum, Pello (Pedro Tapanes, not Pello el Afrokan) on tumbador is playing the bombo part but the audio eq'ed it out. The second version, the studio version from the LP, starts off with a more classic publicly performed abakua type rhythm, then guaguanco matancero, then batarumba. Again Pello is playing the bombo part on tumbador, but it is better recorded. Pello is one of the great tumbadors of all time, guarapachangueo was heavily influenced by El Goyo's (Gregorio Diaz) and Pello's styles of tumbador in the guaguanco matancero, with strong bombo and other variations. Regalao killing it on quinto, in his unique style. Later on at 4:34, someone starts playing the bombo part on another drum. The part is the same but the drum doesn't sound like a real bombo drum used in conga de comparsa. It is probably a tom tom like you said but the tom tom bombo doesn't have the power even close to that of Pello's tumbador. Both women lead singers are tremendous.
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mrclave » Fri May 25, 2012 3:29 am

nice reference to Fats Waller, one of the greatest entertainers ever
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby jorge » Fri May 25, 2012 5:30 am

mrclave wrote:nice reference to Fats Waller, in there. One of the greatest entertainers, ever!

Fats Waller also said "Si tu no sabes no te metas", only he said it in English.
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mrclave » Fri May 25, 2012 5:35 am

con dialogo como asi, es la mera verdad decir "the joint is really jumpin'!" y por eso, mil gracias, compay...
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mario principato » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:25 am

Hello to all . I would add my experience to the discussion ; it is very important to say that the rumba was born in musical places where is practiced is also Congo, Abakua and yoruba .... but we must add that the rumba is developed in the ports of Havana and Matanzas, and that was played on the famous "caja de bacalao" .....to 'Havana and matanza that originated and developed the two styles of Rumba (including Abakua toque and Bata are two different styles between Havana and matanza).....

I have a question for jorge: only to realize without controversy, what does the Guarapachangueo in your speech? I do not know if the Gollo has to do with the invention of Guarapachangueo, but I want to specify that the inventors of Guarapachangueo are Los Chinitos and no one has ever played or plays Guarapachangueo like them ; with Chinitos , my teacher my friends and me have a musical relationship and friendship since 1985



sorry for my english

ciao

mario
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby jorge » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:40 pm

Hi Mario,
Welcome to the forum. You ask a very interesting question, what do I mean by guarapachangueo? Maybe I am using the word a little loosely, but I am referring to modern rumba styles in which either there is only one tumbador/tres dos player or the tumbador and tres dos have conversations in guaguanco that complement the quinto and the singers. Los Chinitos are generally recognized to have developed and disseminated their style, which I heard was given the name guarapachangueo by Manuel Martinez el Llanero (who taught many of us in NYC a lot about traditional Cuban rumba in the 1980s). The modern styles of rumba played in La Habana and to some extent by Cubans in New York / NJ and the Bay area in California incorporate a lot of the influences of Los Chinitos as well as influences of other modern Cuban rumba groups including Yoruba Andabo with Pancho Quinto and Roman Diaz, Clave y Guaguanco, Markito Diaz y Maximino Duquesne (Rapsodia Rumbera, Rumberos de Cuba), and others. There are multiple styles and influences, and the guarapachangueo of Los Chinitos is one important piece of this bigger picture. A lot of these styles were previously called la timba, before that term was commercialized in the 90s to refer to modern Cuban popular music. Of course all of the rumba styles are heavily based on African culture, specifically Congo, Abakua and Yoruba music as you said, and reflect a community creativity not just individuals like Los Chinitos or the rumba families of Matanzas. In reality many people contribute to development of a musical style and only certain ones get credit. I am all for giving credit to true creators, especially among rumberos who so often have their creations taken and popularized with no credit given, but to say Los Chinitos invented the modern rumba (which I maybe too loosely called guarapachangueo), Pablo Mesa invented the Matanzas seis por ocho style, or Tata Guines invented the modern tumbao is oversimplifying a bit and not giving credit to the other drummers in most cases also contributed to developing those styles. All of these were collective efforts, with brilliant creators involved, but also based on centuries of traditions from Africa and to a lesser extent, Spain and other cultures. All these guys have been excellent bataleros, many paleros, Abakua moni bonko, and their creations reflect their religious drumming culture as well. The batarumba specifically incorporates the Yoruba traditions and the rumba. To make it even more complex, modern rumba in Cuba and outside Cuba is constantly developing, changing, and evolving and what we mean by modern rumba today may be different in a few years.

If you listen to Guaguanco Matancero and Muñequitos recordings before 1996, Gregorio Diaz (El Goyo, from Matanzas, different from El Goyo in La Habana) is the tumbador on most songs. Listen carefully to how the tumbador talks with the seis por ocho (second drum) in the guaguancos. In most of the recordings the seis por ocho is played by Agustin Diaz, Goyo's son. The style they developed, the tumbador fill-ins, and the concept of the conversation between tumbador and second drums complementing both the quinto and the singers, were well known to rumberos in both Matanzas and La Habana. The amazing interactions between them, almost like telepathy, reflect to a large degree the family relationship and the fact that Goyo taught Agustin. Pedro Tapanes (Pello) is another great tumbador from Matanzas who has recorded with Afrocuba de Matanzas and who plays a similar style to El Goyo. The guarapachangueo-based rumba styles I have heard, mostly from Yoruba Andabo, Clave y Guaguanco, Rapsodia Rumbera, Rumberos de Cuba, and NYC Afrocuban groups playing modern rumba like Puntilla's group and Raices Habaneras have all incorporated these concepts and taken them to another level. I have only heard Los Chinitos play on YouTube and El Goyo's (Gregorio Hernandez from La Habana) recording "La Rumba es Cubana" and have an idea of their style, but haven't met or talked with any of them. To my ear, a lot of the modern rumba tumbador/tres dos conversations sound a lot like drum conversations El Goyo and Agustin Diaz have played in guaguanco matancero since the 60s and Goyo and Pablo Mesa (seis por ocho of Guaguanco Matancero) played before that. Rumberos here in the US who play modern rumba / guarapachangueo all have great admiration for El Goyo and Pello, and guaguanco matancero in general, and do recognize the important influence of guaguanco matancero on development of modern rumba in La Habana. They also recognize the contributions of Los Chinitos to development of the guarapachangueo and modern rumba, as well as contributions of Pancho Quinto, Markito Diaz, Maximino Duquesne and others.

Since you are in contact with Los Chinitos, it would be great if you could ask them how they see El Goyo (de Matanzas) and his influence on their development of guarapachangueo. Can you ask them next time you talk with them?
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mario principato » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:45 am

ciao jorge, thanks for the welcome. I had already brought in another post (my video - I posted my solo tumbadora) ....... Ok, I'll tell you what it is for me the Guarapachangueo: Guarapachangueo is dialogue, is question and answer , just as you said you also, in an incredible way (you feel like playing the aragon brothers - mario and alexis - brothers were born and grew up playing together in the barrio Korea and since childhood have heard and played Guarapachangueo!). Since the end of the 70 the lopez brothers decide to eliminate a tumbadora , keeping some of the ideas and concepts of tres dos ..... it is certain that it is not easy to attribute the authorship of styles, but someone has decided first to remove a tumbadora? I know from that Pedrito was to decide to eliminate the salidor ....
for what we both wrote Rhapsody Rumbera or discs of Yoruba Andabo or clave y Guaguancò or Rumberos de Cuba I do not consider guarapachengueo ... just because, in guarapachangueo , we talk about a question and answer between dos tres and fquinto....Moreover, the base of Guarapachangueo has phrases that are typical of the style ; in large disks, particularly Rumberos de cuba, sums up the sound and the concept of Guarapachangueo ...... (salidor playing with very little on the tumba, and very on cajon)

I will return to Cuba in November and ask about it as possible !!! ... I know also maximino that was my teacher and with his 75 years has a great knowledge of the environment as possible and ask him too....in a few days here in Genoa will Ernesto el Gato singer los Rumberos de Cuba ...... in a city like Genova is a kind of event !!!!

I am still sorry for my english

mario
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Re: BATARUMBA DOS

Postby mario principato » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:05 am

Mario and Alexis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGnoNnMx ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSnHyWAYtNM

Y aqui otros estilos de tocar guarapachangueo entre los chinitos con Irian y Pedro y despues Irian y Alexis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYYI-k-N ... ure=relmfu

and here a little story told by the brothers lopez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8n3GRB1Ks0
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