Doubles-strokes again - Doubles as coming from heel-toe motion

[Johnny Conga]

Just a small comment on Richie Flores. First I will say the brother has Great hands.Second he has no '"Afinque". He cannot play and hold the time when he is playing. That is his way of playing. Now I have heard some great things from him. But if nobody can understand your drum conversation what good is it, it just sounds like a head on crash...Overplaying does not make a conguero/percussionist......my 2 congas...JCJOHNNY CONGA... :;):

[RitmoBoricua]

I have the same opinion about Richie Flores, Lightning fast but he can not really hold a "tumbao" pattern. I have seen him live many times lots of flashing stuff and overplaying. Como Dicen No Hay Ibiano!

[Laurent Lamy]

I have the same opinion about Richie Flores, Lightning fast but he can not really hold a "tumbao" pattern. I have seen him live many times lots of flashing stuff and overplaying. Como Dicen No Hay Ibiano!

I have the same opinion too ! Nothing is so beautiful like a phrase. Percussion is language and the language exist to be understand. Technique must serve the language...

This is what I think !

ZunZun

[Simon B]

Martin, I have been practising those doubles for a long time most days and there is no going back: for me the new 'way' is THE way! Now I can get double stroke rolls that are faster than my single strokes. I'm trying to improve the definition of the second hit - the right tip clips okay, but at speed the left tip is muffling and not clipping an open tone.

Other contributors - despite my enthusiasm for the double, I am agreed about the dangers of letting technique dominate over style. Over the last couple of days I have been listening to Changuito's timbale solo on the last track on Long John Oliva's album 'Lacumi'. It is trademark Changuito - all about the perfect phrase and the space around the sounds. I love the way he teases you with simple riffs, repeating and repeating, turning into polyrhythms, implying that they might wander way off, then guiding them seamlessly back into clave!

Simon B

[yoni]

Hi all!

It's been a while, but I'm sitting at the computer of a good friend and had a chance to write. Hope all of you are doing great!

I'm still doubling up lots of my rolls, but these days am playing lots of darbuka, more than conga... if you think the doubles are hard to get down on congas, try playing them sideways, as on darbuka! But they actually work better on that kind of drum for me now, maybe because that's what I'm used to lately. Could all depend on what you get used to...

I sure agree with all here that technique is just a tool for artistry, and not a replacement for it. Have seen some great cogueros overblowing at times, probably do it myself at times, but the doubles are so much fun when they finally start to work for you that they're hard to resist. Once I saw Giovanni in a live show where he did a solo that was basically a 5 minute roll, with all kinds of twists and accents in it. That was back in '93, maybe he's calmed down some since, and maybe some would have called it overblowing, but I was just amazed.

Now I do the doubles on darbuka, way better than I ever did on conga, and I hope to add a sound clip of my "darbuka madness" soon to my mini web page here (Yonatan Bar Rashi).

Also I will soon replace my listed email address with one I can actually be reached at; the one listed there now is now defunct (defunked?).


Anyway, hoping all of you are well, drumming, and look forward to more fun here on the forum.

All the best!
Yoni

[Simon B]

Hi Yoni - good to hear from you! You are one of my 'virtual' inspirations for the doubles - reading posts about you putting in the time and energy in their practice really spurred me on (and hearing the sound file too!) My next challenge is to try and get the open slap double strokes that Gio demonstrates on Mano a Mano. Anyone - how does he land these with the 'heel-toe' technique?

Simon B

[Colacao]

Hi amigos,

It's easier to practice the technique than feeling. For a long time a made technic but you have to exceed this state. The technique is vocabulary, but that doesn't want to say that you can make the good sentences in the right way.
Much vocabulary to say what ?
I believe it's important to ask me the question in my level how to develop my inner clock ?
How to integrate the essence of the rhythm ?
If I can't put a single stroke right in the rhythm why that is used to double it ?
Now I think the best way for overplaying is to practice more the technic than the inner clock, the feeling and musicality.
I think it's important a balance between technic and feeling in the practice routine. This is the danger for the motivated congueros.
SimonB, nothing wrong with you. It's a reaction more against myself.
For the doubles I think it's the same routine : good, relax positon, V arm position, accent with the last stroke, rebound on edge of the drum etc...like some experienced congueros said.

Colacao

[Johnny Conga]

Unfortunatly Giovanni never really shows you how he got to where he is in his playing, just how he does what he does. Which is ok, but it's mostly for the advanced players. The bounce that he gets as well as Ritchie Flores, and Roberto Quintero is very difficult, to achieve. It's like "pull back" and "bounce" off the edge of the head,but remember Giovanni has spent "countless" hours developing this "pull back" and roll/bounce. I myself have only been doing it for a little while and it's still not as "clean" and as solid as it should be. I also understand that I may have some physical limitations as to what my hands can do and what they can't do, though I don;t want to admit it ??? I still have speed going for me, but not at the high level of a Giovanni who plays 64th note rolls like there going out of style.....ugh......JC JOHNNY CONGA...

[yoni]

Hi Simon, Hi Johnny Conga, hi all...

Simon, it's good to hear from you again, too. I don't think Gio uses the "heel-toe" way to get the slap sound in his double roll, at least I don't, anyway. It's just doing the open double roll, "daddy-mama", with as much strength and slap as possible, I think.
And I think we all can get those doubles down, even without 5 hours practice per day. May get boring, but an hour or two per day only on the double roll should show some real progress in a month or two, or three. Start slow, slowly speed up til it messes up, start it again, that's one way. My two cents (or strokes).
Yoni

[L.Fonseca]

Saludos a todos,
After analysing over and over the double open strokes gio shows on mano mano and comparing them with the ones anga diaz does on his video, there is one curious thing. At slow speed, for me it seems, they have different aproaches, Gio shows them more like a palm drop with accent on second stroke ( altough he does not refer it on the video, it is not possible for the second stroke to be has powerful as the first without any aditional strenght applied to it) with some arm movement at medium speed , but anga shows them has from coming from the heel-toe motion. But if you compare them both at high speed in slow motion, you can notice that the movement ends up being closely the same; somewhat of a palm drop with arm and some heel-toe motion.
About the double slap, they seem to use the same method, like yoni just described above. This is what it seems to me, there are congueros here that already played with them and can much better explain this topic. It´s an honor for me to write in this great forum. Thnx for all the great congueros that share your knowledge. My best to you all, Luis Fonseca

[Simon B]

Luis and Yoni, I think you've got to be right about Giovanni getting the open slap doubles with the hard hand method.

Luis, as you say, Anga shows more heel-toe than Gio. Today, though, I watched Gio's demonstration on Conga Virtuoso and noticed that he seems to start with the palm drop rebound and then go into what seems a heel-toe clip at faster speeds. It's infuriating trying to work it out! With myself I notice that my heel-toe movement has become a lot more slight as I practise more, almost as though I am using the palm drop as you describe it Luis.

Thanks to all those sharing drum knowledge!

Simon

[zaragemca]

I just give my two cents without saling the whole store :laugh: (just kidding),

[zaragemca]

I just give my two cents,without giving up the whole store :laugh: (just kidding),The arm have two set of ligaments which control the opening and closing of the hands,the technique of double strokes(palm and tips),is consisting with lining up those set of ligaments(the one on the top,and the other on the botton of the hands) for the syncronization of the movement of raising the front of the palm and later elevating the back of it.My gift to the brothers of this forum.



Edited By zaragemca on 1091471431