Bata rhythms for congas - examples

[zaragemca]

If somebody have said that there is any culture in Africa older than the Yorubas it is a big time mistake,the bells are incorporated from the Yorubas,regardless of the excavation,(the craftmaship of the Yorubas work went all over Africa becouse they were traders for centuries,and it look like the participants might not know that there are severals bells patterns for the Yorubas music with differents level of sophistication,(what I mean is that there are more than one Yoruba Bell Pattern). I never said that the Yorubas and Carabali,(Abakuas),were the same,but those people which seem to know about it, don't know that the bells pattern of the Arara were influences by the Yorubas, (which were close enough to the Yorubas),and the bell of the Carabali was incorporated in Cuba,(they didn't have any bell pattern for ceremony in Africa)... These cultures did incorporate some others items in Cuba which were not featured in Africa. Anybody could talk about any book they want,my question is, have you ever been inside a Cabildo in Cuba when they were performing this traditional retuals in the 20's 30's 40's and 50's.?,if the answer is not, that is the end of the argument...A Babalawo have nothing to do with the Abakua Ceremony. Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1139947180

[pcastag]

Anybody could talk about any book they want,my question is, have you ever been inside a Cabildo in Cuba when they were performing this traditional retuals in the 20's 30's 40's and 50's.?,if the answer is not, that is the end of the argument... Dr. Zaragemca

Have you? because if you haven't then your arguments have no merit due to the fact that you are asking others to substantiate their points with evidence from inside a cabildo from the 20's -50's which would put anybody old enough to rememer the presence or absence of bells at approximately 10 yrs. of age in the 50's at the age of 60+ years.
PC

[zaragemca]

I have been observing those ceremonies in which my families,and ancestors,(some of them long time dead), belong,(plus the Die/Hard Rumberos)...and communicated long time ago which the one which were authorities in those subjects at that time in Cuba.Thanks.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1139863965

[ralph]

If somebody have said that there is any culture in Africa older than th Yorubas it is a big time mistake,the bells are incorporated from the Yorubas,regardless of the excavation,(the craftmaship of the Yorubas work went all over Africa becouse they were trades for centuries,and it look like the participants might not know that there are severals bells patterns for the Yorubas music with differents level of sophistication,(what I mean is that there are more than one Yoruba Bell Pattern). I never said that the Yorubas and Carabali,(Abakuas),were the same,but those people which seem to know about it, don't know that the bells pattern of the Arara were influences by the Yorubas, (which were close enough to the Yorubas),and the bell of the Carabali was incorporated in Cuba,(they didn't have any bell pattern for ceremony in Africa)... These cultures did incorporate some others items in Cuba which were not featured in Africa. Anybody could talk about any book they want,my question is, have you ever been inside a Cabildo in Cuba when they were performing this traditional retuals in the 20's 30's 40's and 50's.?,if the answer is not, that is the end of the argument...A Babalawo have nothing to do with the Abakua Ceremony. Dr. Zaragemca

the vague nature of your response leads me to believe that you do not have any sources of which to base your findings...unless you are at least 60 yrs old then you discredit yourself among those who were not present in the Abakua Cabildos of the 30's, 40's, 50's...alot of the research that we are pointing to is information that is coming from Cuba...and yes you are right about one thing a babalawo has nothing to do with Abakua...the Abakua work with different names and hierachies and for different purposes...let me sum up your response...if i were to ask a historian of any kind of music that historian would know his stuff...for instance if i wanted to know about the origins of breakdancing/b boying and i were to ask someone like Crazy Legs, or a true b boy which was in NY where this all started needless to say he would be able to give me names, places and events...you do none...all you do is discredit us for not being born in a house in Havana and end of conversation...what is your purpose of being in the forum then? Most of your opinions are based on easily refutable opinion and since you never have any concise source of which we can reference your answers than we have no way of knowing how much knowledge you have or claim to have...simply telling someone that his knowledge is worth squat because he didn't live or come from Cuba, is like saying that everyone who learned this stuff outside of Cuba is garbage as well, which we all know thats not the truth...so please Dr...some more info is needed before i discredit your response as pure hearsay...
y si quieres mandalo en espanol si sera mas facil...tu decision

Ralph



Edited By ralph on 1139864848

[Berimbau]

Dear Dr. Z,
It is GREAT to have you back here. But honestly, if history was totally dependent upon actual eyewitnesses (who are, in fact, never unimpeachable), what would we EVER know about ancient Rome? Or Nok? Or the bells of African Kings that Vansina so eloquently and eruditiously wrote of?


With Respect,



Berimbau

[pcastag]

Dear Dr. Z,
It is GREAT to have you back here. But honestly, if history was totally dependent upon actual eyewitnesses (who are, in fact, never unimpeachable), what would we EVER know about ancient Rome? Or Nok? Or the bells of African Kings that Vansina so eloquently and eruditiously wrote of?


With Respect,



Berimbau

No doubt eyewitness and written testimonial comprise a large portion of our historic events. I think dude here thinks just because he was born in Cuba he is an expert. I prefer to rely on my teachers (at least of which one was born and still resides in Havana) and my other teachers who have played with the greats and studied with the greats. i don't think dude has really contributed much useful information from my point of view, and seems to just keep trying to belittle others because they're not from "real casa de rumberos"! Well, Arturo Sandoval and Paquito de Rivera aren't from New York, but they can sure play circles around a lot of American born and bred jazz musicians, so Whatever!!
PC

[pcastag]

If somebody have said that there is any culture in Africa older than th Yorubas it is a big time mistake,the bells are incorporated from the Yorubas,regardless of the excavation,(the craftmaship of the Yorubas work went all over Africa becouse they were trades for centuries,and it look like the participants might not know that there are severals bells patterns for the Yorubas music with differents level of sophistication,(what I mean is that there are more than one Yoruba Bell Pattern). I never said that the Yorubas and Carabali,(Abakuas),were the same,but those people which seem to know about it, don't know that the bells pattern of the Arara were influences by the Yorubas, (which were close enough to the Yorubas),and the bell of the Carabali was incorporated in Cuba,(they didn't have any bell pattern for ceremony in Africa)... These cultures did incorporate some others items in Cuba which were not featured in Africa. Anybody could talk about any book they want,my question is, have you ever been inside a Cabildo in Cuba when they were performing this traditional retuals in the 20's 30's 40's and 50's.?,if the answer is not, that is the end of the argument...A Babalawo have nothing to do with the Abakua Ceremony. Dr. Zaragemca

Besides, there are many cultures in Africa older than the Yoruba, the city of djen djenno is not older than great zimbabwe.

[Facundo]

Wasn't he (patato) the one credited with giving Lp those enormous sizes for those first fiberglass bata they made? LOL. I've got some mongo live cd's where he actually plays bata on the intro to afro blue, basically played the IYA part for ochosi from oru seco. I also have the bata cd he did in Havana, I'm pretty sure he was playing on there along with his brother, could be mistaken though.
PC

Hey PC,

Just came accross your post. To answer your questions. Yes, it was Patato that gave LP those big sizes for their fiberglass bata. However, Patato was never considered as a bata drummer even though he began to experiment with them and played abericula bata on the New York bembe circuit with a group he had with Totico. Patato's real thing has always been band drumming and rumba. Mongo wasn't a batalero either. On the record you mentioned with afro blue, it was the late Julito Collazo playing the bata parts. Julito was the "man" for bembe music in New York before the arrival of Puntia. As far the Mango in Havana recordings, it was the late and legendary Jesus Perez playing bata. Mongo's cousin Luis Santamaria, an old time akpon, sung two of the tracks on the album.
Facundo

[pcastag]

Wasn't he (patato) the one credited with giving Lp those enormous sizes for those first fiberglass bata they made? LOL. I've got some mongo live cd's where he actually plays bata on the intro to afro blue, basically played the IYA part for ochosi from oru seco. I also have the bata cd he did in Havana, I'm pretty sure he was playing on there along with his brother, could be mistaken though.
PC

Hey PC,

Just came accross your post. To answer your questions. Yes, it was Patato that gave LP those big sizes for their fiberglass bata. However, Patato was never considered as a bata drummer even though he began to experiment with them and played abericula bata on the New York bembe circuit with a group he had with Totico. Patato's real thing has always been band drumming and rumba. Mongo wasn't a batalero either. On the record you mentioned with afro blue, it was the late Julito Collazo playing the bata parts. Julito was the "man" for bembe music in New York before the arrival of Puntia. As far the Mango in Havana recordings, it was the late and legendary Jesus Perez playing bata. Mongo's cousin Luis Santamaria, an old time akpon, sung two of the tracks on the album.
Facundo

Thanks for the info! my teacher in Havana ( alberto villareal) inherited one of jesus' set of fundamentos. Great guy and a tremendous teacher!
PC

[zaragemca]

Saludos a todos,I don't have to belittle anybody,all I'm doing is puting the misconception,or misinformation on the right track,nobody have to feel belittle for not knowing something,(A LOT OF PEOPLE IN CUBA WHICH WEREN't CLOSE TO THIS CULTURE DIDN't KNOW MANY OF THIS STUFF NEITHER).Which is why those name of Palo,Santaria,Lucumi,Voo-Doo,etc. came into being used, Lidia Cabrera was the one which gave more knowledge to the people outside this religious circles,even Ortiz's recognized that he was wrong in many of his early work.Why do I have to belittle any of your. ....To Berimbau To Odum of the Yorubas have the history of Africa.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1139947443

[tamboricua]

Cuban percussionist Mauricio Herrera adapting the bata toque "La Topka" for Elegua to three tumbadoras.

Mauricio Herrera "La Topka" three tumbadoras

Enjoy,

Jorge Ginorio

[JohnnyConga]

who is this guy Mauricio Herrera? So many conga players so little time!...."JC" Johnny Conga.. :;):

[tamboricua]

who is this guy Mauricio Herrera? So many conga players so little time!...."JC" Johnny Conga.. :;):

Hola JC,

Here is some info on Mauricio Herrera from the Timba.com website.

About Mauricio Herrera

I believe he relocated to NYC recently.

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio



Edited By tamboricua on 1155579402

[JohnnyConga]

Well add another to the list of growing Conga players relocating to New York City...#### it's got to be crowded now.....the competition is might fierce these days...."JC" Johnny Conga....

[Berimbau]

JC-
I say let 'em slug it out back home!!! Down here it's "who you gonna call?" Why me, of course! That's why I LOVE Memphis!!!!!!!!!



Saludos,



Berimbau