Notation... Reading vs. Playing... Training... - How important is notation in learning?

[Raymond]

Yes, reading will enhance the understanding of music. However, is not everything because some people who play by just reading without dominating and/or getting the right groove or withouth dominating their instrument get mechanical. Is the worst thing you could do as a player to be mechanical. (Is one of my struggles now when I try to sight read things....Not that goood by the way...)

I started reading classes about three years ago because I want to "increase my arsenal" and be a more complete player. Have to admit I am not the best reader. However, my reading teacher, Tito de Gracia, has given me a great understanding of all latin rhythms through those classes and these things are better to explain and understand when you have an understanding or read music. Also, by reading I could get some of the books out there that show techniques, etc, etc......It helps a lot!

There is never too much when you add things to your playing!



Edited By Raymond on April 23 2003 at 19:01

[yoni]

I'm also not too good at reading. In fact, I'm pretty bad at it to be honest. I also was terrible in math in school, except for geometry which dealt with shapes I could see, rather than those abstract letters of algebra, which seemed to me designed for the purpose of pure confusion.

I've tried reading before, and there are so many notation systems to choose from worldwide that it's just staggering. If I have to sight read and play the same exact part over and over again each night, as in a Broadway show band or something, well forget it, I'd rather do other kinds of gigs.

But this topic has piqued my curiosity about reading again. I might start with the twelve tone and rhythmic system known in the West... I'll try to get that book that Johnny Conga told us about. Thanks, Johnny.

[Raymond]

Be careful when you are talking about reading. There is a long, correct for some, method and there is the short method. I have tried both.

Some music scholars will give you the whole 9 yards reading that technically is learning how to read the piano. I tried that and it was boring for me. Even tried software! Hate it!

The "direct approach" for me was getting straight to percussion notation and then going to learning to read syncopation. (Ted Reed, Louie Bellson and Stone book for rudiments/hand technique). Also, the emphasis here was into the notations found in a "salsa" arrangement. More fun!

Most latin rhythm arrangements are syncopated. (If not all...I do not know. My doubt here is one of the flaws of the "direct approach".... I only know in the genre I have practiced.

Taking the "scholar" approach will make you a fuller musician than what I have done.

Good luck!

[pini]

Hi guys.

I am not sure I fully understand the level of "reading" that all of you mentioned. Do you mean seeing notes for the first time and play in real time or get notes to practice them and then play ?

I have learnt piano for about 7 years , so i can read notes , but in order to understand the rhytems I see on the web I dont think it takes much knowledge.

By the way , yoni , I am doing now master in applied mathematics , so far I dont see how it helped with my timbales playing ... . It just "steals" time from practicing ???

The difficult thing is to match between those symbol to what we hear , especially in solos. In most cases it is more easy to play by the feeling , but then , if we want to remember the piece and play it again writing it can be a help for the memory.

I think it takes a lot of experience to be able to built a solo on the spot when standing on stage and to make it sound WOW.
Maybe writing it first can help...

Pini.

[yoni]

I think it takes a lot of experience to be able to built a solo on the spot when standing on stage and to make it sound WOW.
Maybe writing it first can help...

Hey pini, maybe you're right about trying to write it first. But so far I've tried mainly the "experience method", and I love the freedom and spontaneity of the improvised solo. I think if I do long written-out solos they might end up sounding mechanical, like Raymond was talking about. I'll do short specific breaks and so on when it's called for and when I like it, but I love most to build solos and dialogues with other players on the spot. Spontaneous composition.

If you're in a team with fine players with good communication, it's in a sense like playing a sort of ball game and the more you try it, the better it sounds each time (usually).

Sure, there's more of a challenge at first in front of an audience than at home alone, where maybe most of us play at our absolute freest. But there's also nothing like grooving a crowd and inspiring them to dance and keep dancing. Another bonus of the joy of music.

This is getting way off topic again, but the soloing aspect can make less experienced players tighten up, whether the solo is written or not. I am happy that these days I have little if any "stage fright", maybe due to my years in music and maybe even partly due to something I used to do that I now consider quite dumb - I used to box amateur when I was younger. In that game, if you don't do well you not only get booed, but also hurt. As far as stage fright, going onstage to play music always felt way easier to me after those few years of boxing. So that's one way to help get past any fears on stage. Not at all recommended, but possible.

[Raymond]

Sight reading a solo is not easy task! You have to be very good. Of course, solos are best when they are improvised. That's actually what they are. A lot of books out there transcribe some classic solos and/or patterns to follow to do solos. Their intention is not for you to sight read them but to be familiarized, specially for those not familiar with latin rhythms, with what is done in a "latin" solo.

Solos are tough when you do not dominate the instrument. For a great solo, you have to dominate the instrument. (In "cuban based" rhythms you have the sense of "clave" to deal with that makes it more complicated).

Also, I am a believer that there are people who are naturial soloists and some that are more to play in ensemble. Sometimes you could manage both "skills". Example, here in Puerto Rico you get a lot of so called percussionists who could be soloing through out the whole tune but cannot play in ensemble. Personally, I consider myself more of an "ensemble" player than a soloist. In some instruments, I feel more comfortable than others because I dominate those instruments more. Another thing to consider in latin percussion solos is what kind of soloist you are, the super fast skilled/technique guy or the "walking through or caminando" good combination soloist. You could be both or one of them.

In regards to solos, it is good to see in notation some of the most followed or done patterns in solos and/or some of the classic solos. However, I recommend using them just for reference. There are a couple of ways to practice solos that I recommend people to do, memorize some of the "classic solos" (I mean with the song not through reading them, doing what others have done, will teach you technique in some way), and to actually do your solos while playing and if possible record yourself and listen..... You will make mistakes or it will not be of your liking but you will work on your mistakes. Here in Puerto Rico, some of the rumbas we have allow you to do so. Can't be bashful...you have to throw yourself in. Not everybody could be Giovanni at the first shot....

Saludos

[congabebe]

I love this topic. Good discussion. I learned to read and sight read music, not a easy thing, but I stuck at it over the years. I must say, counting is a must, and I must admit it has always been a struggle for me. I am mildly dislexic, when you get better at sight reading, you are encouraged to read a measure ahead of what is written. This is a tough concept, but you learn phrasing that way and it gets easier over time and after much persistance. I have been teaching myself how to read percussion parts and it is a slow tedious process. Why do I do this grulling task? so I can learn new patterns and expand my vocabulary on the congas. I can't say it has paid off yet, but it will. If I don't do this, I will play the same patterns that I have learned over and over again, so this forces me to learn new patterns and will make it more fun for me down the road. Will I find a gig playing congas where I have to read charts? Probably not, but I really believe that reading is a tool that will work to my advantage later. I would say that it can only help you learn more about your instrument and it will open up information about playing that you may not be able to get from a teacher. I my case, my teacher can't read music or percussion music, so there is stuff at this point I can't learn from him and I am determined to learn as much as I can. I would encourage everyone to learn to read. It is a great tool.

Peace,
Congabebe

[yoni]

Yes, this a fun discussion. I'll blab a little more on it here and then shut up and get back to the drums...

I can't say much on the benefits of reading since I do it so poorly. I used to cop solos & other parts exactly (or try to) off Santana records and other stuff I loved. I learned basic sounds and conga/bongo and other drum techniques from different sources over the years, mostly from more experienced players I met or hung out with. I hope to keep on learning til I drop, whether it be by ear or otherwise.

Some things Raymond said in his last post here really hit home for me: "Of course, solos are best when they are improvised. That's what they actually are." That sounds right on to me, and I can't add a thing.

The point on solo & ensemble type playing is also very interesting to me... I try to do both. Some guys solo all through a tune, hog the spotlight and end up sounding lousy and making the whole thing sound bad. But it's possible to sort of "half solo" lots of the time - keeping a groove but varying things here and there to spice it up and make the music sound "conversational". I think in classical music they call this playing "obligato" (don't know for sure). This is how I like to play, though if another guy is really blowing, I often just keep a solid groove for him at that time. Often a smaller ensemble gives more "freedom" to each player, but great fun can be had in a big band, too, when the chemistry is right.

And that point you made about not being bashful, Raymond, that's another gem - especially in drumming, I think. Yes, you must not be bashful with your instrument, but must dominate it, like you said, and make it talk for you. This doesn't mean overblowing all the time, but that confident attitude will make a huge difference in anyone's playing if they also keep their ears open.

Peace and ciao for now,
y



Edited By yoni on April 24 2003 at 14:09

[Raymond]

Yes, it is an interesting thing for me too! Coordination, or independence, of playing and also music reading is not that easy and like yoni said you have to be a couple of bars ahead to be good. I have learned to admire people that could do that. (I have been to so many salsa recordings and/or see people sight reading, I have tried everything....)

Another thing that kills me is the different ways arrangers or copyists could write the notes. (Got used to the nice notation in books and not the "hand notation" that sometimes even upside down of what I am use to).

On the first time I am reading something I have to stop and see within what is written in the bars, that by the way is syncopated, to make sense out of it. I tried even the "Bruce Lee" style of "relaxing when about to strike" to be ready to hit what I am supposed to hit when I am reading but I lose punch in what I am doing. Sometimes I freeze when about to hit. Or read something the wrong way, a eigth note that actually is a quarter note, etc, etc. Also, is hard to keep on the playing with swing, bar counting and then hit when you are supose to. Also, I have notice that if I have a cymbal hit that is in the 3 of the clave it is very uncomfortable even when trying to do a fill before the hit. It rushes you...

My teacher gets mad with me because I do not do more practicing with the reading and do not try harder. Of course I like more the playing. The most often "reading practice" I do is counting bars while listening to a tune and noticing what note and where in the bar any hits are going on. Of course, that is easy compared to do it while playing and reading. (One in a while I transcribe the tunes I am playing with a band to be able to practice my reading. It gives me the biggest headache).

By the way, the typical salsa arrangement will only tell you if you will play Paila and Bells and in what clave and will not give you the pattern of the paila or bells you are suppose to be playing. (The same with bongos and congas. Only if a rhythm will vary from regular salsa, i.e, pachanga, songo, etc, it will tell you in big SONGO during the particular bars, etc). The ensemble hits or breaks and the cymbal hits are probably the only notes you will see in the arrangements. Believe it or not is easy. I do not know what kind of arrangements you guys get to see.

My teacher summs it up the best way; is like normal reading; you have to be able to "scan" quickly through it and be able to write or say it, etc. etc. If you for example you read in syllables like hy-po-po-ta-mus, you are not there yet: it should be hypopotamus all straight done and just at one glance you know what the word says. Takes practice.... I have to keep it up avoid my over analizing sometimes of things until I catch them.

One of this best recommendations I have gotten from my teacher, that I have not been able to do it to the fullest yet, is been able to relate sounds with the combinations of certain notes. Is like for example you see an h and a and you know what is supposed to sound like without thinking about it. This part is one of the techniques I am emphazing lately.

Solos....unless you are natural, well "the street" will give the experience. (Assuming you have your chops to do what you want to do in a solo).

Saludos



Edited By Raymond on April 24 2003 at 15:43

[Simon B]

On the subject of soloing, I think it depends very much on context. For example, when I do a solo in a 'Latin' gig - I am aware of clave, and Latin 'language'. I tend to take less risks than I might do in other contexts because I know it really counts - my solo needs to totally mesh with the groove being played underneath by the other musicians, and it will potentially be judged in a specific way by well-aquainted musicians and listeners. So these days I nearly always follow the old path of starting with simple musical phrases, and build if the way seems open, otherwise sticking with these kinds of licks. Perhaps in a few years I will be more reckless but at the moment I'm a journeyman.

On the other hand, if I do a funk gig, which I do perhaps more often, I feel less restrictions (not saying I enjoy it more), perhaps because I am the only percussionist, and I assume musicians and audiences don't know that much about what I do. Therefore I often throw out as many chops as possible and indulge in some showmanship, usually by starting with a technique I've been working hard on in practice. Then to just play and see what happens - if it doesn't quite work then to #### with them, they probably won't even realise!

Simon B

[pini]

That's the spirit !

[KingKongas]

To read or not to read... is that the question? I started out playing strictly by ear and visual understanding of hands in patterns, etc. About 2-1/2 years ago I started playing again and this time I was introduced to "reading" percussion music. What a difference it has made for me personally. There are many percussionists who dont actually read music but are fantastic drummers but it seems to me that being able to read music is something that cannot be understated. I am not by any means an accomplished musician but I have been exposed to SO MUCH musically because of my ability to read music. I can practice to almost anything and also have been able to play so many of the rhythms on this site as well as ALOT of other sites. It's SO amazing to sit down with a charted rhythm and (in my case) struggle with the rhythm and FINALLY get the rhythm only to find out... Man... I actually have played and know that rhythm. I can say that for myself being able to read somewhat has opened up a whole new world for me and I encourage you all to at least get that skill under your belt. That said... there's nothing like an all-out bembe or jam session amongst drummers... readers or not.