the new pecussion scene - Am I alone hating it?

[rebongo]

I totally agree with Tone, and i am very happy to hear from many people the same things i say from many years.
Very good the comparison of Mike: too many spices in a dish!

[Quinto Governor II]

Good points Zwar and Congamyk. I agree with a lot of what you said. That video was posted here by Congatick. Its on page 24 of the video thread, at the time of this posting, if anyone reading this has not seen it. My take on all this is that there is a time and place for everything. I certainly got a kick out of it, when I first saw it. Matter of fact, I had not long been playing, so it definitely had an impact on me, and I don't think it was a negative one. The few times I saw a conguero or percussionist in my early years, as I look back, it was always about the chops. Tito was always wailing away every time I saw him. And in the contexts that I saw him, it was certainly appropriate. For example a show to be aired on TV where the producers would I imagine encourage musicians to perform in as more show-ee a manner as possible to be appealing to the mass market. The first time I saw a professional conguero live was seeing Peanut Taylor's performance at his club 'The Drum Beat' in Nassau, Bahamas. It was all chops. I've always believed there was a competitive aspect to Drumming of an African origin. I would guess that it was a lot less egotistical ( in the negative sense of the word) than it is today. Ego is also a good thing. IMO you show me a musician who doesn't have a big ego and you'll show me a run of the mill musician. If a conguero gets better by trying to become as proficient as another' than hopefully the whole culture benefits. If one aspect of drumming begins to dominate another to the detriment of the culture in general, than we need to balance that by maybe creating some healthy competition on the other end. Maybe that whats taking place now. Concerning Poncho, I've always wondered how guys good love Mongo and not love Poncho. Then again, I do understand, however you can't, IMO say that he has no chops, or his playing is too simplistic. I think it was Johnny Conga himself who said "if you can play what he played, then how good are you?" Wise words I think.

[JohnnyConga]

oK here we go again.....Poncho has "chops" NO doubt about it .....and he is a Mongo "clone"......and there are many of those also, I was one myself, for a time....Quinto YOU may have been impressed with Peanuts at his club in the Bahamas, which I have been to and GOT TO PLAY ON HIS UNTUNED AND BROKEN UP CONGAS....to me he wasn't and isn't a "player" rather than a "showman"...ok guys 2 different types....guys the cats today are about the "commercilization" of the drum brought about by one Martin Cohen at LP, and the few at my company Pearl, Toca and the others....I can complain that Ritchie Flores, and some others came to Pearl way after I did, and I have been in this business for 41 years, and nobody could care less about my Musical History, cause Im not "IN THE NOW" though i continue to tour, record and perform, almost everyday of my life, the companies go with who is with who and how popular they are atthe moment....**** IF i landed a gig with Britney spears..you would see my face all over the place, magazines, TV, VH-1...etc...BUT when the gig is up, your back to square one and you become a faded memory, unless your are the very fortunate few of less than 1% who Keep in the spotlight year after year....so in other words you are only as good as your last gig,as they say....so as long as these guys have the spotlight going, music isn't at the forefront of their playing....that is my personal pinion of 41` years as a "pro" in the "Business of Music!".....still smiling ..."JC" Johnny Conga...

[JohnnyConga]

Just so everyone knows PONCHO is a FRIEND of mine, and has been for many years...I applaude his consistency ......just so u know though, he is just another conguero who happened to be at the right place at the right time, and that is all that it is to it....nothing else had to do with his career....all he had to do was listen to the Record company and he did the rest....ln which any of you out there with minimal experience, could also do, if you had a record company behind you.....Mongo was signed to no less than 9 different record labels in his career....Poncho has been with one for 25....that is not some thing that exists today for ANY conga player, not even a Giovanni has a label behind him...so i leave it to you all to figure how does it all work?>...still smiling.... "JC" Johnny Conga...

[Whopbamboom]

I personally haven't been playing congas very long, but I have been into music for quite some time now. Even attended college several years as a music major....

In my opinion, YES YES YES it is equally important to NOT play a note than it is to play a note. The artistry of music is in when something IS played, and when it ISN'T played.

Now, I like to see monster chops, but I agree that monster chops are not necessarily MUSICAL. And in the end, I think musicality is the most important thing in music. Otherwise, it's not music. At least in my own feeble mind... but I would never be able to convince someone like Cage.... (anyone ever hear of 4"33"? It's the complete opposite of monster chops, and it isn't any more musical to my ears... just 4 minutes and 33 seconds of total silence, other than someone coughing in the audience or whatever)... So, IMHO, good music requires good balance of whatever is being played and whatever isn't being played.

That being said... I didn't see that show that was mentioned earlier in this thread, and even though I would like to take in 5-10 minutes of that, I'll bet I wouldn't want to see more than that in any one sitting. If the whole concert was machine-gun drumming, then I'd probably get up and walk out for some fresh air at some point... and not return to my seat.

As for Poncho, I have seen him play once in a live setting. After hearing about this multi-Grammy-winning conguero, I expected a lot of monster chops. But his playing that night was just simple grooves, nothing like I thought it would be. I was actually wondering why he was so famous. BUT, the music was GREAT. So what does that tell you?

As for Poncho's chops, he does let loose a couple times on the album Cafe Cubano and it's just great. And I guess that's my point here. Good music has a good balance of what's being played and what's not being played.

[Quinto Governor II]

Pavloconga, Your point about contrasting the Anga & Tata video with an event like the Pr Masters Round 1 is well taken, however no disrespect of any kind intended I just view it, and enjoyed it. I happen to view the Solo de Anga con Irakere 1994 video on the same page, and it brought tears to my eyes. That video may have been posted here, if it is I missed that one. That was the most moving solo I have ever witnessed. Maybe knowing he has made the transition has something to do with how I felt watching it. I'm not sure. I have his conga mania video, and I've heard many praise his abilities, but I have not seen or heard that much of his playing. Now I feel, I better understand the thread here in honour of his legacy. How does one put a performance like that in the context of this discussion. At this point I'm speechless

[windhorse]

Thanks Pavlo!
Just enjoyed that video of Tata & Anga!

Like CongaMyk says.. we could go on and on about who we like the best,,,, & like Johnny C said,, you need to find yourself and NOT be a clone! gotta love your attitude!
no doubt we all learn a bit from the flashy stuff! But then we go back and hopefully work on our music and not get too fascinated with a rudiments only approach..

BTW, many fantastic players on this list!
Keep it coming!

[pavloconga]

Pavloconga, Your point about contrasting the Anga & Tata video with an event like the Pr Masters Round 1 is well taken, however no disrespect of any kind intended I just view it, and enjoyed it.

Hi QuintoG,
The PR masters was interesting to watch, and no question, there are many amazing percussionists in that clip.
cheers
P



Edited By pavloconga on 1180391513

[TONE74]

I dont know a lot about this but I dont get the magic of Giovanny. I dont know but to me Giovanny is a mix of other conga players the stuff that he does I seen someone else do before he got speed but so what. I just saw the one he did with " El negro" and saw his nails grown like tata and then he does the same things as him. Might also have to do with the way he expresses himself like when he says " respira la respiracion" on the one with Changuito seems to be trying to be all phylosophycal. Also when he calls Cuban music Afro Caribbean if you dont want to give Cuba credit thats cool but dont act like is from somewhere else I dont hear Afro Rican or Afro Venezuelan Afro Colombian or Afro Dominican Afro Brazilian It seems they are always trying to detach it from Cuba and then they say is all from Africa but Africans play different from Cubans from what I see. I know Im gonna hear it for this post but hey I have my opinion too. Maybe Im wrong so feel free to enlighten me. Peace out

[Colacao]

Hola congueros,

In my opinion today there is a lot of virtuosity promotion. Dvd's, books, web multimédia etc...
The music today is audio and visual.
Drummers and hand drummers make money with clinics tour and workshops with endorsment. Sometimes more than with a band. The public and young drummers want allways be impress and most of them don't care about music. They only think technique. That's a mistake.
Technique is important but don't forget to learn salsa tunes, rumba and all the styles you like... the goal is MUSIC

Que viva la musica

[deadhead]

This is an excellent topic, and it seems that everyone is pretty much in agreement that more is not always better. I've seen a similar discussion 100 times on drumset forums. "Like look at so and so drummer he can play 16ths on the double bass at 250bpm, hes the best drummer." There is a thing in music and, especially in drumming, called "feel". I'm sorry but you can't apply "feel" to something that fast, it looses its musicality. Like others have said it sounds like a machine. Playing strait 16th notes at 200bpms while switching the accents, slaps, tones, etc. around is not appealing to me, and in my opinion not great drumming. Empty space in a measure is just as important to the musicality as the notes are. I would much rather hear a player find a groove and be creative with it rather than go crazy. Don't get me wrong Gio is an amazing player, but I think he is highly overrated and the majority of his talent is in his speed. Nothing I have seen him do has amazed me and I find his solos to be repetative and boring, I played the same **** on marching snare in highschool.



Edited By deadhead on 1180471886

[Tone]

Yes I agree that Poncho is a very good example of a musical conguero.

His main focus is always THE GROOVE, and what groove! Whether Cuban or funky. Also I like is soloing which is very articulated and appears simple but actually uses a lot of clever permutations of figures in 7, 9 and 11. It has a lot of the clarity and mathematical yet groovy qualities of a good quinto player in the rumba.

He has build a carreer because he didn't try to sound only cuban but incorporated the music around him in the States. But he has all the background and chops you need. Cal Tjader saw to that.

He has created this very infectious fusion which people like. He deserves every bit of his success.

I am sorry JC but your comments about him sound bitter on your side. He didn't take it away from you. He created his own niche which appeals tremendously to people not just fellow congueros ; do the same and you will be rewarded!

His has a record label because he makes music as opposed to Giovanni who plays rudiments. What label is going to promotte that?

Also he is a good band leader. His horn section is so tight!!!!! It is such a pleasure to listen to a band with that kind of groove and tightness. It is not just a bout the rhythm section. A bit like Count Basies' band : the whole orchestra was a groove machine. And that is down to the band leader.

We need more like him.

[Tone]

I am glad you are satisfied and proud that is the main thing.

But I still disagree with you. Give a record deal to 1000 congueros and only one will achieve the success and longevity that Poncho did.

Trust me I have been a record producer for 20 years, this kind of success doesn't happen to anyone who can hit the drums well.

He has the qualities of a leading artist : charisma, entertaining qualities, but most important of all taste. And that is that tasteful emphasis on music for the people which makes his records and his playing exciting. He focuses on the essential : the groove and the music, not speed and chops.

Miles Davis wasn't a great trumpet player, thousands of kids could and did outplay him easily. But who do you want to listen to? Who is the great musician?
Is he one of the most revered artist of the 20th century because he happened to get a record deal and other trumpet players didn't?

Being a musician should certainly not be about your technique. It is only a mean to an end. We all know it is easy to get lost in the daily practise and forget about the big picture, but the public doesn't get fooled so easily ( or so I hope).

Time will tell.

Abraço

[JohnnyConga]

Hey Tone ..u ever been to NYCity?....there are 1,ooo drummers there...and I could tell you that at least 100, just 100 out of that 1,ooo could do, AND do what Poncho does,everyday too, the difference is the recording contract and that is all.........and u are entitled to your opinion on this forum as we all are....believe me personality, professionalism, experience all come into being a player in New York City......and THAT I DO KNOW!...I guess you just don't believe me when I tell you that story huh,when it is HISTORICAL FACT!....your dissmissing this....like i said before more Power to Poncho!....BTW if u want a small list of those "other" GREAT players let me know....we have a huge supply of them here in the U.S. and just because they havent been on one label for 25 years doesn't make them any less of an Artist... "JC" Johnny Conga....

[TONE74]

Another thing might be that a lot has been done already and it must be hard to sound different so people look at speed as the challenge by which to outdo each other. Back in the old days people had a "sello" or original style. They say many people had some simple tumbaos but had an original sound and thats what made them different. The enviroment today is different though. I'm feeling the drumset and conga players that play timba in Cuba though ( I guess I'm partial to them cause of my nationality ). I saw a live band ( timba )last october over there and they blew me away the sound was so tight. I like salsa but the sound they were making made NY salsa sound like a nursery rhyme.