6/8 rythm

[CongaTick]

Laurent,

Really loved this group and you're right about the style: unpretentious, easy, smooth and well-placed transitions and tasty fills. My intro to Chiem1 Nakai -- wow--- I just LOVE her keyboarding. Thanks.

[blango]

12/8 brothers... its 12/8.

[zaragenca]

In relation of the Youbute, movie where Celia Cruz is singing, (Affair in Habana),who knows which are the bataleros in the first scene,..the second/scene,and third take of these video.?...some homework.Dr. Zaragemca

[Derbeno]

In relation of the Youbute, movie where Celia Cruz is singing, (Affair in Habana),who knows which are the bataleros in the first scene,..the second/scene,and third take of these video.?...some homework.Dr. Zaragemca

Pray tell..... the suspense is killing me, I want to sleep at night!

btw do you know which particular rhythms are being played?



Edited By Derbeno on 1185328165

[Tonio]

12/8 brothers... its 12/8.

I learned a few Haitian rhythms in 12/8. I don't recall all of them at this point. It was an odd way to learn the long/short bells, but it worked out in the long run.
But when my teacher had rhumba in 12/8, it threw me. Now I consider it (long/short bell)6/8, which incidentally does work.
I do not remember any specific notes that actually makes it a 12 beat pattern.

Thouhgts?

[burke]

Ok let me display my ignorance and perhaps learn something.

6/8 basically 6 eighth notes to the bar right?
and of course 12/8 12 eighth notes ...etc

But how do you know/hear this?

I mean, one the one hand logic tells me the downbeat in the case of 6/8 is going to be the first note.
To use an irish example (the irish washerwoman) and my favourite phrase trick - it goes:
CUP a tea cup a tea
CUP a tea cup a tea (etc)
but I also know that 6/8 stuff can have accents in different places than the first beat (never mind 16th notes or rests)

I suspect some might say "feel" and fair enough - but I'm hoping for a little math too.

[burke]

make that: on the one hand
not: one the one hand

(I got all excited)

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Burke,
Sub-Saharan African musics and its descendants in the New World are based on a scheme of four main beats. Those beats are divided into three pulses and/or four pulses each, for a total of twelve and/or sixteen subdivisions.

This music was developed independently of standard European notation. “6/8” and “12/8” are time signatures used in European notation. The fact is that these rhythms can be written in any number of ways, using a variety of time signatures. Therefore, I think Blango’s statement “12/8 brothers... its 12/8”, is somewhat misleading. There is no “correct” time signature.

The conventional method of writing triple-pulse, clave-based Latin jazz is to write clave in two measures of 6/8. That’s why the triple-pulse clave pattern is often referred to as the “6/8 clave”. However, a more literal representation of the music would be to write clave in one measure of 12/8. That way, clave and all four main beats (four dotted quarter-notes) are contained within one measure.

Tonio,
All rumba is poly-metric; the main beats are divided into three pulses and four pulses. In guaguanco and yambu the primary meter is duple pulse and the secondary meter is triple pulse. In columbia the primary meter is triple pulse and the secondary meter is duple pulse.
-David

[blango]

Thanks David, for making my point for me.

it's a two clave pattern.

But with respect to western notation, it should be felt in 12. In other words:

Much of the traditional rhythms played to the Yoruban, Dajome, Bantun or Congolese 12/8 traditions seem to our ears to shift from 6 to 4 without reservation.

Sometimes it sounds just like four, sometimes just like six and at other times somewhere between (ie western notation limitations). This is the best way i can explain why it needs to be felt in 12.

What would you call Guaguanco or Yambu? four? Six? if so, the drawing board is calling you.

Lets not be limited by our notation. Who cares what number we put on it as long as we feel the tension and release of the two clave pattern. Or at least imply where the pattern is.

Im not 'formally' educated on this stuff, but this is how the masters of this tradition have explained it to me.

Clear as a bell

Tony

[Tonio]

Good point David. that certainly explains the translation to notation. As long as the feel is there, I'm good.

Wasn't Rumba clave actually derived from 6/8 (Abakua), and rumba colombia from 2/4 duple meter?
Obvioously now its all written in 4/4.

T

[davidpenalosa]

>>Thanks David, for making my point for me.

Hi Tony,
You’re welcome, wasn’t even aware that I did that.

>>it's a two clave pattern. But with respect to western notation, it should be felt in 12. In other words: Much of the traditional rhythms played to the Yoruban, Dajome, Bantun or Congolese 12/8 traditions seem to our ears to shift from 6 to 4 without reservation.
Sometimes it sounds just like four, sometimes just like six and at other times somewhere between (ie western notation limitations). This is the best way i can explain why it needs to be felt in 12.

I agree that there are 12 subdivisions per triple-pulse clave. It was your use of the time signature “12/8” that I was referring to. That relates to a notation system and not necessarily the inherent structure of the music we are talking about.

The shifting in perception you described did happen to me back when I was first a student, but that was a long time ago. The four beats are the primary cycle and the six beats are the secondary cycle.

>>What would you call Guaguanco or Yambu? four? Six?

I addressed that in my previous post.

>> if so, the drawing board is calling you. Lets not be limited by our notation. Who cares what number we put on it as long as we feel the tension and release of the two clave pattern.

You brought up the issue of time signature. Like I said, this music was developed independently of notation.

>>Or at least imply where the pattern is. Im not 'formally' educated on this stuff, but this is how the masters of this tradition have explained it to me.

Did masters explain the music in terms or four, six and twelve, or were you referring to the tension and release of the clave pattern?
-David

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Tonio,
Yes, I think it’s most likely that the (what we call) rumba clave pattern in Cuba came from the ekon (abakua bell) pattern. I don’t know what you mean about columbia and duple meter. Triple pulse (“6/8”, “12/8”, whatever you call it) is the primary meter of rumba columbia.
-david

[martingoodson1]

Hey David
Thanks for your interesting comments. Can you explain what you meant by:
In guaguanco and yambu the primary meter is duple pulse and the secondary meter is triple pulse.

How does this secondary meter manifest itself in guaguanco?

thanks alot
Martin

[blango]

David,

I think we are saying the same thing, with some slight things to clarify:

>>The shifting in perception you described did happen to me back when I was first a student, but that was a long time ago. The four beats are the primary cycle and the six beats are the secondary cycle.

Regino, Aldama, Sandy have all stressed the 12 feel to me. no they didnt say 12, but they wanted a more 6 feel to what we westerners write in four. ie the tumbao of Yambu.

This is very advanced stuff, about as advanced as it gets. Singing in and around 12, playing with the contrast between 6 and 4, hand and voice. Using the interplay between 6 and 4 as tools of tension and release, etc.

If one can dance at the same time, then we are on to something

It has not been described to me as primary or secondary feels, but one unified 12 feel. ...splitting hairs, i know...

>>You brought up the issue of time signature. Like I said, this music was developed independently of notation.

I know you dont need a drawing board over this David! Its just my general frustration about the perception of many players that things are played in either 6 or 4, which is simply not the case. I know you get it!

All the prominent ethnomusicologists i have read say they are 12/8 rhythms, its certainly not my idea. I hope people will spend the time to read what academic historians have said about this subject.

Have fun,

Tony

[blango]

no, none of the masters I know use the idea of 4, 6, 12 etc. I assume it is because it just confuses the issue of feeling where the feel is, if you follow me.

As far as structure, its all about clave, but you know that

Tony



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