Bata rhythms for congas - examples

[davidpenalosa]

I think Dr. Zaragemca is correct concerning the use of djembe in Katherine Dunham's group. I remember years ago a friend who played in Dunham's group was musing what it must have been like to be in that group when it featured Francisco Aguabella, Julito Collzao and Ladji Camara. He said that it was a real hodge-podge of African drums. So, Ladji Camara most likely introduced the djembe into Katherine Dunham's group

from "The African Music Encyclopedia; Ladji Camara:
"Upon meeting Ladji again in 1962, Charles Moore and Ladji performed in schools, libraries and museums in New York and New Jersey. Upon returning to the United States, Ladji was invited to perform with the Bamboise Dance Company in Hollywood, California with Katherine Dunham."

http://africanmusic.org/artists/ladji.html

I did a simple Google search and didn't find any corroborative evidence that Agabella, Collazo and Camara were in the group at the same time. However, the simpler point of djembe being used in Katherine Dunham's group is highly plausible.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1138855510

[zaragemca]

Saludos DavidPenalosa and the rest of the brothers in this forum,I would not said something which would take credit away from somebody,(moreless, my countrymen/percussionists)..It is true that Francisco Aguabella was a in the bata since being a young person and has the authorization to play Bata... And the rest of the people,like Mercedita Valdez,(which is an Obalocha, as my mother is too),but at that time,there weren't that many Batas available,and our elderly wouldn't allowed to give a Bata to him to play with katherine,(even when it was requested by Gilberto Valdez which was musical director of Katherine's folkloric group for years),so they used Haitian/Drums and Djembes. Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1138906798

[JohnnyConga]

I can tell you personally the troup of drummers that toured with Katherin Dunham were...Julito Collazo -Fransisco Aguabella-Patato Valdes, and one of MY first teachers-George 'Sabu' Caldwell the 3rd. I also knew Mr. Charles Moore and worked in his "dance classes" on 8th ave, in New York, and had also met Ladji Camara also, who played with Katherine "after" the fact. Julito and them toured in the late 50's with Katherine's troup, and "Sabu" told me the story, that I share with you now. George "Sabu" Caldwell the 3rd also played jimbe in Olatunji's group, which is where i first met him at the African Pavilion at the Worlds Fair in NYC 1965, i was just a young hungry pup , then. George could play with the best of them. Playing rhymic patterns(guaguanco) on 2 drums with his right hand and solo at the same time in his left hand, and was playing 3 drums with bands all over the city including Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker and others....he is not as well known cause he was a loner and kept to hmself. I took only 3 lessons from him but they were worth every second, cause he taught me how to play for dancers,and gave me theory on playing....George "Sabu" Caldwell the 3rd, another Drum brother of Drum history...."JC" Johnny Conga..

[ralph]

Francisco Aguabella was initiated into aña in Matanzas, Cuba as a teenager.

THAT'S RIGHT, HE WAS ALSO THE ONE TO BRING OVER THE FIRST SET OF SACRED BATA!!!

Skin Deep,
i was not aware of this, i always thought that Arturo Pipo Pena, brought the first drums, but then in reading i see that Arturo actually helped to consecrate the first bata de fundamento IN the united states...so Francisco actually brought bata de fundamento to the states prior to this?
i was not aware, can someone else verify this....sounds like something i would've remembered if i'm not mistaken...

Ralph

[pcastag]

According to Mason, the first set of consecrated drums was brought in by Pipo Pina in '76, the second set by Onelio Scull in '79. Aguabellas drums were reportedly birthed in Matanzas in 1983 from the anya of Alfredo Calvo.
PC

[ralph]

According to Mason, the first set of consecrated drums was brought in by Pipo Pina in '76, the second set by Onelio Scull in '79. Aguabellas drums were reportedly birthed in Matanzas in 1983 from the anya of Alfredo Calvo.
PC

yes...thank you, i forgot about Onelio for a second, thanks for clearing that up...i was almost positive that it wasn't Aguabella, or any of the other greats (i.e. Julito Collazo) that brought fundamento in until later....i knew Pipo was either the first in bringing the drums or bringing the anya...

Ralph

[zaragemca]

I already said that not Bata was given to Francisco Aguabella in the 1950's,the looseness of using Batas for Groups,(other than folkloric), was started by Oscar Valdez Jr., with 'Irakere',and after that the first one was brought it to the U.S.A..Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1138928740

[SkinDeep]

ok, my sources were wrong.

[davidpenalosa]

While I'm not sold on John Mason's translation of Lucumi lyrics into English ("Orin Orisa" 1992), I found his chronology of consecrated bata drums to be consistent with what I've heard. It’s the most definitive description I’ve read concerning who brought the bata to the US from Cuba.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1138952314

[niallgregory]

Hi David,
What are your opinions on masons translations ?

[davidpenalosa]

Hi niallgregory,
My hesitation to fully accept John Mason's Lucumi-English translations is based on various criticisms I heard around the time the book came out.

When I was writing the liner notes for "Musica Yoruba" (Conjunto Folklorico Nacional de Cuba - Bembe CD 2010-2), I enlisted the services of Patty Hagen. At the time Patty was writing her Masters thesis comparing Cuban Lucumi and Nigerian Yoruba and she translated Lucumi lyrics on the album for me. Patty impressed me with her knowledge and nearly obsessive thoroughness. She was very critical of Mason's translations because he had an African translate them, rather than a Lucumi fluent Cuban. She contended that his methodology was unsound. At the time, her reasoning was very convincing, although now, over a decade later, I can’t really remember specifics.

During this same time period I was told that the late Lazaro Ros was shown a copy of Mason’s book and he dismissed it as incorrect. Furthermore the late eccentric Lucumi song student Jerry Shilgi told me that the African who did Mason’s translations was "not even a Yoruba".

Granted, this is all second-hand information and I have no direct knowledge as to whether "Orin Orisa" is valid or not. Still, one needs to be very careful in translating Lucumi to Yoruba and I think it was not wise scholarship to completely bypass the Lucumi fluent Afro-Cubans.
-David

[niallgregory]

Thanks David,
I have the book and found it very interesting.I also seen the book in cuba in the homes of some santeros in mantanzas.I must ask there opinion on it.Cheers .Niall..

[tamboricua]

Guys,

The batadrums.com shop offers "Obbedí-Cantos a los Orichas, Traducción e Historia by maestro Lázaro Pedrozo. Is this a good resource?

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

[SkinDeep]

i read his interview, the old man is full of wisdom.
i would get it.



Edited By SkinDeep on 1139075942

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Niall,
I'm very interested in what those santeros in Matanzas think of "Orin Orisa". I'm guessing they don't speak English, so one would have to read the Lucumi to the Cuban, then translate the English translation into Spanish.

If you look at Mason's text, a lot of it does not sound like the Lucumi lyrics I've heard. On pg. iii Mason says "I have edited the translatrions as little as possible in order to allow the Yoruba voice to be heard and appreciated". I interpret from that statement that he changed the words in order to fit them into his presentation. I imagine he thought he was "correcting" the Lucumi ("creolized" Yoruba) back to it's original Yoruba meaning.

Patty Hagen stressed to me several times that Lucumi is not a dialect of Yoruba, but a separate language altogether. I asked my dad who's a linguest about this. He told me that what is a dialect and what is a language is often a political consideration. So, who knows? I don't.

One of the things I learned from Hagen was that both Yoruba and Lucumi use word play and so there are often several meanings of the lyrics. This made it very frustrating for me when I was trying to just get some simple translations of the lyrics on "Musica Yoruba" from her. Patty would give me all the possible meanings of the lyrics. I found the process overwhelming. It took a lot of nagging on my part to get her to commit to some basic translations that I could use in the liner notes. Because of the process we went through, I feel confident that the translations I ended up using in the liner notes are solid.

Hagen's study involved the comparison of Lucumi and Yoruba. I feel a little funny, like I'm spreading gossip about John Mason. However, I think "Orin Orisa" brings up some fundamental questions concerning the meanings of the Lucumi lyrics sung in Cuba.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1139100686