Playing with Drummers - What should they play?

[congamyk]

Also , someone here mentioned a DJ mixing tracks, another form of desensitizing.
As we all know Miami is a city port,where you may find nationalities from all over; but mostly from South America and the Caribbean, areas where the rhythms from Africa took an evolution, and you would think that a city with such a melting pot of nations would offer killer live entertainment with a lot of percussion, but guess what ? DJs have taken over with their robotic, sampled boom boom disco crap and all due to economics and the cheap club owners. But people are getting tired of it, because they have realized that its killing their identity.

Paz Olsongo

If you want to discuss DJ's verses bands and how cheap club owners are you should start a thread about it.

You are missing the point altogether. I said he could add a DJ (as a band member) that sequences/mixes the drum kit part along WITH a REAL percussionist. NOT a DJ only. I also qualified that the DJ could mix loops that worked with each song as a band member, not just some guy asking what bpm the song requires but someone that knows the details and feel for each song's arrangement. Also the DJ can add live and improvised effects and additional dynamic loops onstage on top of the kit foundation while also allowing for the percussionist(s) to solo dynamically.

As far as "cheesy machines" maybe you are stuck in the 80's because nobody on a professional level uses bad sounds. Everything today is master sampled and the sounds used in software and the latest groove boxes is authentic and almost always sounds much better than some clangy cymbal and poorly tuned snare that most drummers use. This "mixes" much better onstage than any drummer can.

[bongosnotbombs]

I'm with Congamyk a little, when I mentioned the DJ electronic thing, I mostly suggested it as adding melody to the mix or something.

The two bands I mentioned Sleepwalker and Tussle are both live bands and a guy with a computer happens to be one of the musicians in the band, he plays music like everyone else, his instrument happens to be different.

Especially Sleepwalker, they are more or less a traditional jazz ensemble, piano, drums, bass and sax but they add these really cool electronic effects on some of their songs. I don't know if there is a separate guy for that, but with the other band Tussle there is, he is right on stage, and I think he also cues the projected lighting effects, basically playing both light and sound as part of the performance. The two drum kits are live and the bass.


listen to Ai No Tabi
http://www.myspace.com/hajimeyoshizawa

http://www.myspace.com/tusslers



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1191189835

[OLSONGO]

As far as I can recall the topic of this thread by Diceman is PLAYING W/ DRUMMERS , so I personally would like to honor that. So outright machines and DJs are out of the question, also as expressed by Dice. Congamyck it seems you personally have a hard time finding a well versed drummer, as you describe that most of the ones you seem to run into have clangy cymbals and poorly tuned snares, and that surprises me 'cause UMKC has always had a reputable percussion dept. I happen to own an Alessis DM5 and a Yamaha DTXplorer which I use with drum triggers for some recordings, but I can never get the deep sound that a Surdo can give me or the natural sound of a cymbal especially its decay or quick cut of a splash.

Paz Olsongo

[congamyk]

I don't disagree software and/or hardware (electronics) has limitations. But with all of the technology and information on how to use it available I believe that musicians have to change, adapt, constantly learn and try new things. I think this fits with the spirit of music - to always learn and change and grow.

In this case it's a small group trying to find a drummer that fits. I posted what I would do. I think a competent, musical, creative and world-beat knowledgeable DJ is simply more effective than a drummer.

Olsongo - perhaps you could get the surdo sound you want by using software and sample your surdo. Then you have that sound always at your disposal.

[Diceman]

Pilgrims,

I am sure there was once a very similar thread on a drummers forum, asking how to find a percussionist who didnt get in the way of what a kit drummer was doing, and we all know where that ended up------looped bloody samples!!

If you believe in Darwinism, we are all on the way out!! :


suave

[CongaTick]

JC:
Hear! Hear! I have to keep that in mind.

[OLSONGO]

What I don't understand why the separation? since when was a drummer not a percussionist? In my case i have had the fortune to play with some very good percussionist at the drum set , and I at times take on that role. Since I can remember in the concerts and Jazz Festivals i have played in, there always has been a drummer in the group, and personally i have a reference list of very competent and reliable players who have been around the block quite a few times. This are drummers who know when to play and when to stay out, and is all trough previous communication as to what the show consists. All I can say is that nothing compares to human split second spontenuity and creativity,two very vital elements in what I usually play, that is Jazz with a fusion of world music.

Paz Olsongo

[OLSONGO]

oops.



Edited By OLSONGO on 1191248470

[Diceman]

Olsongo,

I guess a better distinction might be hand drummers and stick drummers.

JC you make a very valid point--silence is one of the most useful notes, it separates sounds and gives them a beginning and an end; it even has its own set of symbols.

suave

[OLSONGO]

Dice,
As I have said , space in music gives presence to the fill.

Paz Olsongo

[bongosnotbombs]

I think the confusion with drummers comes from the fact that they so often play without another percussionist much more than with one..

Conversely a percussionist in a band plays alongside a drummer more frequently than without one?

At the jazz jam I play at the drummer plays every song, he fits every song, I sit out many songs.

I usually play bongos at this event, so I try to play around the drummer, if he is playing 1/8th notes or dotted 1/8's I put 1/6th notes in my martillo variations to fit in-between.

Silence is good, it accents the place where you actually do play, so I sit out some solo's in the songs or skip the bridge.

Is'nt part of the reason the trap set was invented was so a single person could do the job of several percussionists? and so bands had to pay fewer people?

[congamyk]

Any instrument with a static role can be sampled and looped. My thoughts on this are why wouldn't the drummer get sampled? The true Latin/Brazilian/World beat percussionist should be the last one sampled IMO.

Drummers are "percussionists". But 99% of drummers play too loud, take every fill and have no conception of Afro-Cuban and Brazilian rhythms.

Look no further than "jazz drummers". They are supposed to be the "elite" of the drum world, but 99% of them are taught to play a "latin style" that is neither Afro-Cuban nor Brazilian, It is some stupid bastardized conglomeration of both and thus becomes neither. This is the mind-set of the drum stick world. Look at the drum clinics and magazines, they all feature mindless head-banging idiots that play for metal or pop bands. Every article is about huge drum kits with cymbals everywhere. And little to nothing more than fluff about world beats. No wonder so many are mindless to world-beat rhythms and concepts.

Drummers also try to constantly play faster, louder, take every fill, and have little to no sense of musicality. Then forget why they are even there...to KEEP the rhythm steady. Why? Because they don't listen.

Perhaps it's geographical or cyclical but I'm done with drummers. I'll use a timbalero/bongocero, a DJ, or build and my own drum kit grooves and play with them.



Edited By congamyk on 1200585936

[Diceman]

Congamyk,

I agree that most 'Jazz' drummers use the same type of hokey latin rhythm and are too loud, fill every gap etc etc, but my mission is to find, educate and keep a drummer who will play complimentary stuff and who can play with other percussionists.

Things must be tough in KC for you to have given up so early.
IMO I would sooner keep looking than play Kareoke.

suave

[zaragenca]

Ok what I could observed in the video is that, the drummer is the owner of the group and, (the one setting up the video/clip)...what happened on the multi/percussion groups is the lack of knowledge in relation of setting the parameters to articulate the interaction,( something which I always show to my students is to play and to learn to set up differents parameters for multi percussion groups)...I can said that I ever have a problem becouse as drummer/percussionist, I always know where I suppose to be in either affair,and I could point out to the other percussionists the best position for them,(as a matter of facts setting a Samba/Bateria Ensemble is more complex that a drum/conga/bongo groups becouse I need to set up four differents drummers and four differents bell,(all of them on a different parameter),so by the time they are ready to play,(my students),they are ready to take the bulls by the horns...Get teachers which could show you how to play on parameters.Dr. Zaragemca

[CongaTick]

Dr.

I guess I just haven't had the right teachers.