Bata rhythms for congas - examples

[Berimbau]

Z-


Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Saludos,



Berimbau

[pcastag]

I agree, people are always going to disagree, unless they are directly offending somebody or are obviously posting some misinformation to mislead or belittle people, then it should be left for all to see. Of course since somebody is hosting this and PAYING for it I'm assuming thay have the right to censor as much as they want, even though I might not agree with it.
PC

[zaragemca]

I have been inviting people in others forums,and it is extended to this forum,to go and do a search,and find a post where they could observed that I'm getting in a subject without having the knowledge for it,in years of posting nobody have found one... if somebody could do it, come forward I would enjoyed myself...now that's confidence in what I said,..Saludos.Dr Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1139508311

[ralph]

I have been inviting people in others forums,and it is extended to this forum,to go and do a search,and find a post where they could observed that I'm getting in a subject without having the knowledge for it,in years of posting nobody have found one... if somebody could do it, come forward I would enjoyed myself...now that's confidence in what I said,..Saludos.Dr Zaragemca

what is this about...i remember various posts in which your sources were never corroberated, case in point, there was a discussion about Afro Blue, and unless i'm wrong you stated that the rhythm in Afro Blue originally derived from bata patterns played on congas...well as far as i know you never mentioned any of the bata patterns this may have came from, and various others including myself said it had more of an abakua influence than anything, so you dropped off nothing more was heard..so in your opinion would this be an example of you not knowing yours stuff on a post or what? You posed your post as a challenge, and i wonder why if your wrong or right thats fine, but when someone tries to challenge your opinion on a topic, you never have a direct source, and if you do mention a source it is so vague and dated that one has no choice but to drop the conversation

[davidpenalosa]

Ralph,
You are right on. Zaragemca does not corroborate most of his assertions. The Afro-Blue thread is a strong case in point. He never backed up his claim that Mongo’s conga pattern was based on Yoruba drumming. (He did however manage to mention Dr. Obdulio Morales again. )

Here’s a post of mine from that thread:
"….in regards to the abacuá influences in Mongo’s Afro-Blue. On the original version from the Afro Roots CD Willie Bobo played the ekón (abacuá ) bell part
XXXoXXXoXXXo
with brushes on the snare drum. Also, Mongo clearly quotes the bonkó (abacuá lead drum) at 3:11 – 3:15 in his solo. Mongo’s basic conga pattern has some loose similarities with the abacuá rhythm as played in Matanzas, but I’m not aware of any batá rhythm which could be loosely associated with Mongo’s pattern.

Zaragemca from that thread:
"There is not original reference in relation of Mongo trying to play Abakua patterns in Afro/Blue"

Me:
I clearly identified an abakua pattern (bell) and bonko phrases in the original version of Afro-Blue. It doesn’t get much more precise than identifying the exact seconds on the track where you can find it. I’m not the only one here who can site sources either. Zaragemca has been discredited more than once in forums. It’s unfortunate that he’s insisting on taking this issue further.

-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1139527860

[Berimbau]

You know I always thought that Dr. Z's problem was his English language skills. Not that that should be a reason to discredit his posts, especially if English is his fifth language, as I've always suspected. We should forgive him this. How stellar are your own Portuguese and Spanish skills?
Irregardless, I have long come to the conclusion that his many egotistic, contentious, and annoying posts are akin to a great Andy Kaufman or Ali G prank. He likes to hit and run, and when he does come back it is always with ever more gobbligook. I find a perverted brilliance in his convoluted quackery. Never informative, always the know-it-all, rarely on the same planet as most of us, Dr. Z's brand of comedy is most entertaining. I look forward to his zany posts like a good cup of coffee. I'm no hater Z, so please keep posting!



Saludos,



Berimbau

[davidpenalosa]

You know I always thought that Dr. Z's problem was his English language skills.
Never informative, always the know-it-all, rarely on the same planet as most of us, Dr. Z's brand of comedy is most entertaining.
-Berimbau

Berimbau,
I don't like to read people giving Z a hard time for his English problems. That's a cheap shot. I think you have a very healthy attitude. I swing between taking Z seriously and not taking him seriously.
-David

[pcastag]

Doesn't really matter to me whether he's right or wrong. I think we all come here with a touch of humility trying to learn something more about what we love and enjoy doing. Some people are more concerned with showing their "knowledge" than with helping others. Kind of like a drummer who blows a lot but never makes a clear phrase or point. I'm more interested in finding good resources or getting info that will help me play better and learn more about the music (history etc.). Any thing else is really just a waste of time

[Berimbau]

I honestly couldn't imagine this place without Dr. Z.! Yes, Z, you do at times annoy us but we also LOVE you. I for one ALWAYS look for his latest posts. Now I rarely understand them, but I DO enjoy them. Write on, Dr. Z!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



With RESPECT,




Berimbau

[ralph]

I honestly couldn't imagine this place without Dr. Z.! Yes, Z, you do at times annoy us but we also LOVE you. I for one ALWAYS look for his latest posts. Now I rarely understand them, but I DO enjoy them. Write on, Dr. Z!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



With RESPECT,




Berimbau

i hear you...i wouldn't want him to leave either, obviously the guy does know "something" valuable about the music/culture...whether he wants to hide his knowledge in a cloud of ambiguity thats on him, if its comic relief, thats fine...whatchagonnado?

Ralph

[ABAKUA]

Well said all.

Great to see mutual respect amongst all.

[zaragemca]

Saludos,to all of your,I like the subject which was chosen,(Afro/Blue),which is a song that I have played with Jazz players and Dr. King Cobra Band...What I said and sustained is that the percussion patterns played at Afro/Blue is Yoruba rooted,including the use of Shequere and bells,somebody was taking about the Akon,etc,etc...well let me tell you something the incorporation of the bells into the Carabali,(Abakua),performing,HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM THE YORUBAS,There were not bells in the performing of this ceremonies for this group in Africa,neither at the begining in the Cabildos in Cuba,it was incorporated later,(Now that's knowledge)...And I have uncles and cousins which have authority in this religion,and I knew unnumbered of people which belong to this religion in Cuba when I was doing my research of African/Patterns.,(some of the rumberos which I was witnessing on a weekly basis were members of these Fraternal Brotherhood...Now tell me from where are you going to have more direct information than that.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1139606361

[ralph]

Saludos,to all of your,I like the subject which was chosen,(Afro/Blue),which is a song that I have played with Jazz players and Dr. King Cobra Band...What I said and sustained is that the percussion patterns played at Afro/Blue is Yoruba rooted,including the use of Shequere and bells,somebody was taking about the Akon,etc,etc...well let me tell you something the incorporation of the bells into the Carabali,(Abakua),performing,HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM THE YORUBAS,There were not bells in the performing of this ceremonies for this group in Africa,neither at the begining in the Cabildos in Cuba,it was incorporated later,(Now that's knowledge)...And I have uncles and cousins which have authority in this religion,and I knew unnumbered of people which belong to this religion in Cuba when I was doing my research of African/Patterns.,(some of the rumberos which I was witnessing on a weekly basis were members of these Fraternal Brotherhood...Now tell me from where are you going to have more direct information than that.Dr. Zaragemca

there has been research that distinguishes Abakua from Yoruba seperately, Abakua being the the most pure African exponent in the now Afro Cuban music culture/make up, whatever you call it...shekeres and such are of Yoruba decent...if you are saying that since the Efik and Efo people decend from present day Nigeria and Nigeria is associated with Yoruba culture, than what can i say, all i know if that there two different things...i can't remember right now but i don't remember any shekeres on the original Afro Blue (which is the topic, not any covers), could it have been erikundi? Which mark the rhythm of the iton...if the ekon bell was taken form the Yoruba which you seem to mention, than that pattern would exist in Yoruba rhythms, even if this were true than the topic lies not really on the actual bell but the pattern played which one is found exclusively in the rhthms of Abakua or brikamo, and is found in the patterns or ride played by the bonko enchemiya...as far as your cousins and uncles well what can i tell you...i've never been to Cuba, i've studied with a babalawo in NY who has fundamento from Bolanos in Cuba, and has studied with cats in NY, but its a far cry from Cuba itself...what i would like to know is from which rhythms or area of Yoruba music does the ekon bell come from (if it was stolen) then we can pinpoint the actual source, because if your telling me simply that the bells played by the Carabali HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM THE YORUBAS", i'd like to know more info on this...

Ralph

[Berimbau]

Ralph,
I'm not too sure what you mean when you suggest that any aspect of Afro-Cuban culture might be considered any "purer" than another, or that we necessarily must associate ONLY Yoruba culture when Nigeria is invoked. The only purely African culture is African culture itself, and Afro-Cuban culture, although exhibiting massive influences from a variety of African sources, is a unique entity all in to itself.
However, you are quite correct in distinguishing the cultural influences of the Abakua from that of the Yoruba in Cuba. They are TWO distinct groups, each offering their own cultural capital in the collective Afro-Cuban musical universe. Now both the Yoruba and the Efik peoples DO reside in present-day Nigeria, but they are geographically and spiritually many, many miles apart, speaking two different languages as well. For one matter, the Cross River culture of the Efik draws heavily from their neighbors in Cameroon, the Ejagham. Consider this from "Flash of the Spirit" by the noted African art historian Robert Farris Thompson:

Ejagham and Ejagham-influenced captives arrived in western Cuba primarily during the first four decades of the nineteenth century, as a result of the immense rise in sugar cultivation in that portion of the island. The slaves included members of the all-important male "leopard society," called Ngbe in Ejagham...........Ngbe in Cuba was known by the creole name, Abakua, after Abakpa, a term which the Ejagham of Calabar are designated (Thompson 1983:228).

The Ngbe leopard society was reconstituted in Cuba less as a political/economic organization and more along the lines of a religious fraternity. Much of the African liturgical practices were continued as well including the Ngbe's distinctive idiogramatic writing system, nsibidi. The anaforuana of the Cuban Abakua society is clearly derived from nsibidi, as were the peaked hood "Diablito" costumes worn by Abakua in all those 19th century Cuban paintings by Victor Landaluce.
I think that Dr. Z's association of the Yoruba-derived shekere with Mongo's tune Afro Blue stems from a recording of the song that appears on an lp from the early 1960's, "Mongo Explodes at the Village Gate." None other than Julito Collazo begins the tune with singing in Lucumi while playing a shekere. To be concise, let's leave the bell pattern to David for now.
Now this entire controversy stems from an old post of David's, which I haven't yet read. I am inclined to agree with him that the original source material which inspired Mongo was, in fact, an Abakua rhythm. But in the fluid and creative world of Latin-Jazz, which is where Afro-Blue and MOST of Mongo's muse is coming from, mixing your metaphors is ok. So if a Lucumi chant with shekere proceeds an Abakua rhythm, so be it. Mongo, exemplifying the zenith of Afro-Cuba, was just SUCH a multi-cultural heavy!!



Saludos,



Berimbau

[davidpenalosa]

The snare pattern on the original Afro-Blue is an abakua ekon (bell) pattern. In other words, it's the pattern played on the bell by abakua. It is the abakua bell pattern and is recognized as such by anyone familiar with the music of abakua.

Zaragemca, if you are asserting that pattern was borrowed from Yoruba music? If so, please identify which music.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Efik borrowed the bell from Yoruba and that the Efik did not used bells in Africa nor the early cabildos. Is that right?

That's an interesting assertion, but it would take more than the say so of your friends and relatives to convince me.

Leaving that issue aside for the moment, the abakua bell paterns are still the abakua bell patterns regardless of their origins.

Welcome back.

-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1139611915