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When playing tumbao or other rhythms requiring heel-toe, should the heel-toe be as loud as the other tones? When you hear a tumbao being played behind other instruments it's only really the slap and open tones that stick out. This led to believe that they should be played louder but when I play a tumbao in my funk band or any other group I find it hard to stay in time. I believe the solution may be to play the heel-toe as loud as the rest - is this correct???

Fish

Fish wrote:When playing tumbao or other rhythms requiring heel-toe, should the heel-toe be as loud as the other tones? When you hear a tumbao being played behind other instruments it's only really the slap and open tones that stick out. This led to believe that they should be played louder but when I play a tumbao in my funk band or any other group I find it hard to stay in time. I believe the solution may be to play the heel-toe as loud as the rest - is this correct???

Fish

Fish:

By no means I'm an expert on the subject, but in my four years since I began practicing the congas, my experience has been that the Heel-Toe tones are played with natural force for the most part in every rythm that I have learned.
I think that the Slap & Open Tone strokes by their own nature & technique will always sound louder.
Now, I'm sure there are exceptions, and one of the most experience & knowledgeable players members of this forum, I'm sure will be able to comment on those for us.

I know that when playing "A Caballo" and/or "Jibaro" there seems to be a tendency to stroke the Heel-Toe tones some what louder that on other rythms. At least thats the way it feels to me when playing them.

I think Heel-toes are primarily for time keeping, and also for providing a more fuller & deeper sound to the rythms being played.

Hope this get you started in the right track!

Sincrerely,

KINOCONGA

Please don't think I'm being flippant by saying I think the heel-tip (or heel-toe) should be as loud as you think they should be for any given situation. Before electric, and /or amplified music, those strokes would be part of the rhythm; now they may be nothing more than time keeping. But, with mic'ed drums, they can be audible and definitely part of the percussive mix. Kinoconga is correct when he states that, by nature, the slap and open tones will be louder than the other tones. That doesn't necessarily make them more or less important. I enjoy using the muted tone and the touch tones a great deal and they certainly have less volume than the open or slap. The subtleties of the conga are its charm.
I was taught to let the heel fall naturally onto the head and to use the full finger length in order to achieve full "tip" sound. This is in conflict with what Bobby Sanabria shows in his conga videos where he uses the very tip of the finger.



Edited By Michael S on Feb. 28 2003 at 19:39

Hi guys.....In Latin drumming the Left hand is the "timekeeper" and the right hand plays the rhythm. The left hand is not meant to be heard but to keep you in time. It is the horse that pulls the carriage so to speak. So don't concern yourself with having the left hand heard,but make sure the right hand is heard. Consider the left hand the ghost notes of the rhythmic pattern that you are playing. Some patterns(rhythms) demand that the left hand be heard but when playing "tumbao" not necessary. Hope this helps....At your Service. JC JOHNNY CONGA...

JohnnyConga wrote:Hi guys.....In Latin drumming the Left hand is the "timekeeper" and the right hand plays the rhythm. The left hand is not meant to be heard but to keep you in time. It is the horse that pulls the carriage so to speak. So don't concern yourself with having the left hand heard,but make sure the right hand is heard. Consider the left hand the ghost notes of the rhythmic pattern that you are playing. Some patterns(rhythms) demand that the left hand be heard but when playing "tumbao" not necessary. Hope this helps....At your Service. JC JOHNNY CONGA...

With all due respect to your many years of experience and talent, I cannot agree with your statement.
Very humbly yours,
Michael S



Edited By Michael S on Mar. 01 2003 at 13:13

For my humble opinion, the heel-toe is a ride in the same idea like the ride cymbal of a drummer.
In friendly yours.
LL

Hi Michael...as they say in Jamaica-No Problem!....Thank you also Laurant for your perspective of the left hand and it's function.....At your Service....JC JOHNNY CONGA......MONGO LIVES!

Yes Johnny Mongo lives in us for ever. I woul'd like to say one thing: My son Leo asked me who was Mongo in the evening of his death. To answer him,we have listened a cd live of Mongo together. He liked a lot. He has eight years old and learns the congas since two years. You see Johnny, Mongo lives in us for ever...

Johnny Conga, you are indeed a fine man. I thank you for your respect. On another forum I used to frequent (Mars Music, now that they're no longer around, I can say that) my comment would have started WWIII. There was no respect for others' opinions so I was nervous about speaking how I feel; you have dispelled that fear. We all have different opinions and styles and that's why the congas have lasted through many different styles of music. It is truly an instrument to be loved.
I agree with Laurent Lamy that the left hand does sometimes function as a "ride". With the new styles developed for three drum playing, however, I believe the left hand, and left hand independence, has taken on new importance and is equal to the right hand. I am referring to what Giovanni calls "melodic" playing. As far as tumbao, it doesn't matter much because it will be extremely difficult to play heel-tip as loud as the open or slap tones, so they will almost always disappear in the mix. I don't think it is anything to struggle for. Timekeeping for Fish is probably difficult because he is trying too hard to make those left hand tones be heard. I suggest he just relax and play them naturally.
I have loved Mongo for years, long before I started playing congas. I usually hear only about contemporary congueros and thought Mongo was long forgotten. I am delighted to hear that so many congueros loved, respected, and were influenced by Mongo. Sad to say, when I told my wife of Mongo's passing, she said "I thought Mongo Santamaria was a band!". Well, at least she knew of the name and his music.

Hi Michael S...Thank you for your insights. We all can learn from each other,it's a shame in this world the game of politics takes precedence over the quality of life. So we as Drum Brothers have opportunitys through the Drum to communicate and touch peoples lives....for me it is a priveledge I have earned over the course of my life, and I know I have touched many people thru the drum.....so Drum brothers UNITE! and always Respect yourself and the Drum, it is a powerful tool......At your Service.....JC JOHNNY CONGA.....MONGO LIVES!


Let me add this about Giovanni, what he is doing now with his drumming is incorporating "Tabla" technique on the conga drum. He studied with Zakir Hussain when he was in the group Planet Drum with Mickey Hart, that is why the attention to the left hand also, and goto Gio's video One on One and he shows you basic tabla technique and patterns. You will see what I mean. Besides the fact Gio is a personal friend of mine and we have played and hung out together,so he has explained this to me....Peace and Congas,Always ...JC JOHNNY CONGA....

Johnny Conga, with apologies to Fish for getting off of his topic, that is interesting about Giovannni and the Tabla technique. My main exposure to him has been through his video "Conga Virtuoso" and I was greatly influenced by it. I love his melodic approach, which he attributes to Patato Valdez, and that is when I decided to go to three congas and my whole approach and style changed at that point.
I play mostly with rock musicians and if I had to worry about the left hand being heard on the tumbao, I would just give up. I just don't think Fish should worry about it. It will be heard on the quiet passages or when there is a "percussion break" in the song and helps fill out the pattern.

Hi Conga brothers,
Your sister has problems with the Heel toe issue to. I hate to even ask. I hear recordings and I can here the slaps and open tones and I try to make the rhythm even... subdivide like it is written in alot of books (1 + 2 + etc, but when I hear it and try to play along with a cd. I swear they drop the heel toe (more like 16th notes with a doted eighth) and concentrate on slap and open tones. I find when I try to get the heel toe stroke in, I am falling farther and farther behind. Then I work for just the sound and I trip over my hands trying to do it. My teacher, is good at driving through it but he teaches by example and I can't get him to actually tell me what I am doing wrong. Of course this is a practice issue, but I swear when I do it with a metronome I can do it, but it doesn't sound the same. Is there a swing to it like there is in most jazz where you can use a metronome but it swings out side the beat a little ... expressivo? Maybe, I am trying to fit the wrong stroke pattern to the music. I swear I play along with the Bobby Sanabria tape but when I put on a recording to play along with, it is faster or maybe they are not using the same rhythm. Is there a conga book that is as detailed as the Mambo King book? Showing the different parts and transitional phrasing? etc.

And, on a more personal note. Thank you for your help and sharing your expertise and knowledge. It really helps, this is a great site and I thank you. I have not had the conga education, due to the fact, Memphis or Tennessee for that matter is not latin music oriented, so all of your comments I take to heart, I have not had access to the old school or enough of the recordings to know the true meaning of what Mongo's contribution was. I am just beginning to learn about him because of this forum. This is truely a special site because of the people that are active on it and share their knowledge with others.

Thanks and Peace,
congabebe

Many songs require an extremely fast tumbao. There is no question that the heel-toe, as used in tumbao, can be an awkward motion. It takes only time and practice to do it quickly. I used to practice with a metronome at gradually increasing speeds. Just playing tumbao over and over. Then throwing in short fills and/or variations to break any monotony (but not until I mastered that left hand heel-toe).
Tumbao can be, and often is, played with a "swing" feel. This would indeed be dotted eights. Such as:
1 &a2 &a3 &a4 &a1 &a2...etc
I think, of the four tones involved, the heel may be the least loud but I could be wrong.
And if you think Tenn is bad, try Northern AZ. Sheesh!

When playing faster the left hand does not play the whole and 3 and part, it becomes 1and 2,because the and 3 and is too much to play if the tune is a fast mambo so you leave the and 3 and part out and play the tumbao as 1 and 2and 3and 4and . The second slap is a "ghost" note, not meant to be heard. ...At your Service.....JC JOHNNY CONGA.....www.ShowGigs.comJohnnyConga...MONGO LIVES!

PS in my opinion if your Teacher cannot tell you what your doing wrong then he is not a Teacher. In order to teach you must know what is right and wrong about the instrument, styles,techniques,etc....you might want to find another one,GOTO Lessons4you.com...type in your state and see who is qualified to teach. Glen Caruba is in Nashville and is a Teacher in his spare time. At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA....MONGO LIVES!...