Tips for Double-strokes?

[Simon B]

I've really been applying myself to double-strokes lately and reckon I can do eight clean strokes a second, maybe more. But I just can't seem to get quicker. I'm trying all the stuff that Giovanni outlines in Conga Virtuoso. Does anyone have any tips?

One thing - they seem to give me slight back-ache far more than regular single-strokes of any type. Anyone else found this, or am I doing them too tensely?

All help appreciated!

Simon B

[yoni]

Takes time, but the doubles will feel natural after a while. Starting them slow, deliberate, slowly gaining speed as seen in Gio's video, is the best way, I think. By deliberate I don't mean tense - in a way the hands should just drop and bounce, like drumsticks. Yes, the bounce is learned, and not as easy as with sticks, but keep on! Relax and let em bounce. Try to have both wrists/hands look and sound the same.

Here's another approach: the double can also be a fast heel/toe motion with both hands on the drum. We used to call one hand doing this the "floating hand", as found in several conga rhythms. When you do 2 "floating hands", one after the other, it becomes a roll I've heard called "the fish". Open it up - try and raise the hands a bit off the drum, pull them back toward you a bit and feel the beats more in the "toes" than "heels" - and it becomes the full open double roll.

Slowing down and speeding up while working on rolls also seems to help. So does breaking them up, and the options are of course as infinite as music. I felt the doubles were impossible for me until after I put lots of hours into it, sometimes forced it like sport, but didn't start them until I was about 35.

Backache? I get it no matter how I play if I don't sit or stand straight - "butt bone" actually sticking out some - as they taught us for lifting in nursing. Tipping the drum you play most slightly away from you might also help with finding the bounce in the doubles.

Hope this helps!



Edited By yoni on May 01 2003 at 10:14

[yoni]

A couple more tips come to mind...

At least at first, practicing the doubles loose but HARD seems to help - trying them hard as possible at times seems to work it into the "muscular memory" faster. Varying its dynamics (loud to soft, soft to loud, etc.), also helps, just like varying its speed.

When traveling as a passenger or otherwise sitting for long periods without a drum, play the doubles on your thighs, or on your lady's thighs (this may not always be acceptable). I've heard that some set drummers practice on pillows at times to build up strength. Try the doubles on a drum after a while of playing them on something soft, and they will feel easier!

Once I read an interview with Elvin Jones, where he was asked for advice for avid drum students... his answer was something like this: "I'd say try playing a perfect 5 minute roll, daddy mama, daddy mama. That should take a good student about 2 years...".

For the double hand roll it could take longer, depending on how much time and effort is put into it. But with perseverance, there will be times when you will feel quantum leaps in your progress - even after a couple months or so of really getting into it. Those advances will inspire you to work on it even more...

I would say "good luck", but it's much more a matter of just doing it than luck. The main thing, like many say here, is to enjoy. Doubles is just a technique, and drilling them alone for long times can be boring, but the payoff is well worth the effort; you'll end up with a very enjoyable tool.

All the best,
Yoni

[Simon B]

Thanks for all the advice Yoni. The Elvin Jones comment is a great one - it's one I give to people sometimes, but one I can't say I've been applying to doubles! I've also heard set drummers talk about using pillows - Billy Cobham says that he also did a lot of road-work on phone books!

Simon B

[CongaCaja]

Playing on pillows and telephone books? Although that's great to build hand strength (playing on a inelastic surface) which tends to improve sound quality when playing slow to medium speeds.

However, I think it would silly to ignore the physics of the drum. I speak from years of drum corps experience where the tensioning of drums is quite extreme (LOTS of rebound) and 5 minute rolls are a "picnic" in terms of chop building exercises. (We used to do "adventure rolls" where we'd march for a mile while maintaining a continuous open roll). In this context, one strives to allow the rebound freely and only apply enoungh energy to do one of the following:
- minimal downward to continue the same stroke height
- minimal lift to change to higher stroke height (louder)
- or resist the rebound to lower stroke height (quieter)

A key element was to learn how to transition smoothly from this controled feel of the slower-medium speeds to the loose feel of the high speeds. The loose feel was absolutely necessary to achieve the high-speed playing required in top-end drum corps. Thus, one spends lot of time playing rolls at various speeds in order to build comfort with those in between (transition) tempos.

So, getting back to congas...

Granted, congas are not snare drums and hands are not sticks. But, yoni's advice about being loose and allowing the rebound to occur is a good idea. When yoni says "HARD", he says "loose but HARD" (don't forget the "loose") which I took to mean playing louder volume levels so as to maximize the stroke motion of the hands and thus reinforce the muscular memory. I don't think he intended that one ignore the rebound of the conga head as if it were a telephone book (been there, done that too...with sticks).

For myself, I still trying to get accustomed to the feel of congas. In addition to drum corps, I was university-trained in all sorts of stick and mallet percussion, but hand playing is new world. Currently, I love to practice technique...reminds me of high school when I was trying to learn nice clean open rolls with sticks.

Lastly, do you guys recommend that Giovanni video? Does it have good for instructional info or is it just a lot virtuoso playing? Thanks...cjk

[yoni]

Neat stuff, CongaCaja. I definitely mean loose at all times, with strength applied just as you said. When traveling or sitting long times without a drum, I've tried the doubles on softer surfaces and it seems to strengthen the hands/wrists and forces one to "make" the bounce, which then seemed a bit easier to me on drums afterward, but playing on the drum is of course preferable and the end goal. The bounce on hand drums may be more difficult or "learned" than with sticks, but it eventually comes out and I think we're all capable of it after a while. There are times I "press" the roll a bit and this increases its speed or velocity (whatever), but that loose feel is always key, as you know. Maybe it also helps to think of each double stroke as a "one-handed flam", one hand just "flopping" after the other. But I think the time- tested "slow to fast" method is probably best. Last few years I'm playing more darbuka (doumbek) than congas/bongos, and on darbuka I now do the doubles much better than on conga, simply because I got used to it on darbuka more, something I also thought impossible once.

That video - it's both instructional and amazing virtuoso playing. The several rhythms they do there are great, though I no longer pursue percussion for its repertoire... what interested me most is the one part where Giovanni shows a long double roll, very slow to very fast.

When I met him once, he said he was doing doubles, but I found it impossible for me then and tried to make my single rolls as fast or long as doubles - this just about wiped my arms/hands out. (To sound that wild with singles, you got to be Superman or Johnny Conga). I finally gave in and tried to teach this "old dog" in me the new trick, and after a while, it sure works.

Okay, I sure can get to talking around here... back to the drums. Fun topic!

all the best,
yoni

[JohnnyConga]

Me a Superman? Not hardly, just proficient maybe...smile...doubles for me have always been a challenge, then again adapting rudiments to congas are a challenge in themselves. To treat your hands like sticks, and remember everybodys hands are different in size, shape, power,speed. I find the smaller the hands the faster they are. I have piano hands there fast only because of the amount of time practicing my rolls into the "press" rolls and out again,going back and forth. Yoni your the first one I known that's hip to the "press" rolls, which are very good to practice. But people don't forget to learn your rhythms as well as your rudiments. The rhythms will carry you much farther in your playing. It seems everybody wants to be the "fastest conga player alive", it ain't gonna happen without hours and hours of practice. Giovanni is obssesive-compulsive in his practicing. He'll get up at 3 in the morning and start practicing cause he dreamt about a rudiment. Now that is extreme. So like everything else I guess Extreme may be the new term for the new conga drumming that's here today. We have Extreme engineering and extreme this and that why not Extreme conga drumming,eh?.....At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA.........

[Simon B]

Size of hand influencing speed of playing? Interesting point. I am over 6' tall with big mits and long spindly fingers. JC your 'piano hands' sound similar. Giovanni's hands look to me really small - little paws. Yoni - describe your hands for us sir!

Simon B

[SieteRayos]

One great playing surface is the round seat of a drum chair. It has the smooth feel and the bounce that I need to practice for hours. I also have duplicated them from the round 11 inch boards from Home Depot and hard foam with black upholstery vinyl they use in car seat.

While I am watching TV or in the couch with headphones on, I lean back and practice on the round surface for hours, better than phone books which I also have used while traveling. Try it you'll like it.

On another topic: I also build forearm strength by using the the Dyna-flex a gyro device that is quite effective to build forearms for tennis. See http://www.dynaflex-intl.com/
This gadget really builds the stamina and explosiveness of drummers.

[JohnnyConga]

Simon ...to me there are two kinds of physical speed a. Hand b.Arm. When used in combination can create a lot of speed. Giovanni has more hand speed than arm speed...do you know what I mean.? Yes exactly what i call Gio's hands "paws". His hands are small and very tough. But it's the "bounce" he can create with those little "paws'.........ummmm it frustrates me at times too, for sure. I wanna be faster, I guess it's the natural order of things today, gotta have it now and quick, so why not be as fast as i can on congas/timbs/bongos etc.....I'm outa here..........................................whew! JC JOHNNY CONGA

[yoni]

"...Giovanni is obsessive-compulsive in his practicing. He'll get up at 3 in the morning and start practicing cause he dreamt about a rudiment... " Johnny Conga

Love it!!!

"... Yoni - describe your hands for us, sir!" Simon B.

Certainly, sir! Mine are quite small, with little bird bones. I'm just about 5' 5" - I recall Giovanni was like a head shorter than I, with even shorter fingers - the man is tiny. His palm felt like fine sandpaper. Could be something to Johnny's point about more speed in smaller hands, like more speed in a hummingbird's wings than in an eagle's. On the other hand (no pun intended), there's a young dude in my area who checks me out for lessons - he's tall and lanky, but is now doing the doubles not bad at all. No fair, he's too young! So tall folks, don't despair. The double really does improve when you keep on it. It may never sound as strong as the single roll, but remember, Giovanni is always very well miked.

Like I wrote in another thread, I had an "advantage" of having a real dumb job for a couple years - watchman for farm equipment in remote areas - alone on that job I would drill the doubles endlessly, even at home in the bathroom when I didn't want to bother anyone. As I said, I'm sure no Gio but I do get obsessive at times.

Yeah "extreme" drumming sounds like some of what we hear today. But I think it's important to remember what you implied, Johnny - it's not nearly all about technique. Rhythm and musicality are paramount. The way you turn all those tight, unpredictable corners on congas probably doesn't come from technique alone, but from mucho experience and an uncanny feel for the music. I may never be able to turn those sharp corners like the great Latin congueros, but it's something I sure love hearing.

Oh, Simon, just occurred to me, there MIGHT be someone in the UK doing doubles - or something close to them...

I used to have an album called "Monty Python's Previous Record" - hilarious. On the first skit someone says "Do these sounds embarass you?" And one of the sounds that followed was someone doing that "fish" roll I described earlier - no kidding! I guess you'll have to find John Cleese or someone to tell you who did it.

I'm outta here for now, too!

Later,
yoni




Edited By yoni on May 04 2003 at 15:01

[Simon B]

Hey Yoni, BIG progress today! Varied dynamics, from really hard doubles to really light - worked wonders, speed and consistancy have leapt!

Giovanni's hands - aesthetically not a nice thought, from what I understand! Like Tata Guines, I understand that he lets those nails grow so that his mitts look like those of a Hindu holy man. But that's the great thing about that level of committment/obsession - the only thing that matters is the conga drum, social niceties like well-clipped finger nails are out the window. Can't say I'm at that level - the waking up at 3.00am that JC mentioned - or indeed want to be, but I respect it!) Indeed my nails might not be long but in my late twenties my hands are lined like an ex-miner's!

Got to go - been spinning Sabu Martinez records at a DJ slot I do and feeling the fatigue!

Simon B

[yoni]

Bravo, Simon. You might also find that "pulling" those double strokes toward you a bit helps get the "double engine" going. Keeping the fingers as flat as the drum head will help for a clean sound, as with an open tone.

Yeah, the obsession thing, I don't always have it or want it, but do admire it. I do like to see and hear art that makes my jaw drop. A few years ago I met 2 Turkish brothers, Ahmed and Levant Misirli. Champions of the darbuka and dahola (bass darbuka). An Israeli "patron of the arts" found these guys in some hole in Sinai, living like nomads and playing up a storm. He brought them to Tel Aviv for some shows and seminars for a few months.

I had been blown out by Giovanni some years before, but these 2 brothers were at least equally nutty - they played 15 hours daily and I kid you not. They are like the Harlem Globetrotters of their instrument. A few players here were actually a bit bugged by their playing - it was so insanely wild that some just called it "circus act". But I was mesmerized.

I ended up playing with these guys a lot while they were here and we swapped some tricks - they flipped over my doubles and I freaked out on their "Turkish twiddle" (I call it that), a roll with two fingers of one hand and one finger of the other - talk about fast!

Ahmed, the older brother, has worked with some "big names" in the Mid East, may have his own disc out now, but both of them basically lived like gypsies, playing, traveling and living on very little. They had no families or other commitments I knew of, so I guess that helps. I think they may have gone separate ways at the moment; one might be back in Turkey, the other in Europe. But I sure hope to meet and jam with them again one day.

Well, just an aside. Later for now,
yoni

[timo]

I never liked doubles,(mainly because i cant do them), hehe, i can go pretty fast on singles though.. but if you really wanna go fast, learn the nine finger technique, its used on Zarb, or Tonbak, Persian goblet shaped drum, like tabl, or doumbek, each srike you hit nine fingers(eight works well too) on the head in order, 123456789, starting from the right hand pinkie going toward the thumb, then the same thing with the left,(only leave out the thumb), sounds like flurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
i can get about 50 strikes a second, its not very loud and rarely sounds good when playing conga rhythms..(the technique works best when the drum is horizontal on your lap like playing doumbek).

Also a good technique is the one used on Indian Tabla, its much louder and you get to around those figures in speen,
8 strikes a second is a normal "fast" plaing speed on tablas
(i mean playing rhythms, solos and fills not included where you have to double and quadrouple the speed).

oh and Yoni this two finger on one hand and one on the other is the Tabla technique, very handy to know.
Hey do you by any chance know Nurit Ofer, she has a great group(i cant remember the name), they play a mix of indian music and arab music(in Tel Aviv), their percussionist is amazing,(no bias even though she was my Tabla teacher when i lived in israel). She sings and her husband is the percussionist with a tabla player and sitar player(who also playes Saz and Oud). just wondering...?

[congabebe]

Thank you! I love this discussion and needed the information greatly. I have been just concentrating on a simple single roll even stokes and speeding up and slowing down. Nothing to complicated, just trying to get some control and flexibility. I have seen Giovanni in one of his tapes, but didn't know what direction to start in. I was afraid to work on the double strokes because I was not sure how flexible my wrist should be. Your descriptions are great so I now feel like I know better what I should do. Thanks. In process of winging it, I have picked up a 'lick' by listening to cd's and didn't know if it was correct or not. I use it on bongos, thumb/finger of right hand and one finger of my left hand, like a triplet and I have tried to use it like a roll or just play with accenting different parts of the triplet. I have alot of fun playing with it, is it the same as what you have described, is it a 'real' stroke for bongos? I rarely get to see anyone play on bongos in the 'traditional' since and figured I was probably just adapting h/f technique to bongos, since you don't use all of your hand like congas. Now, because of your comments, I am curious about developing it more. Is there a correct method that I can research? I don't remember seeing anything on bongos like it in congaplace information.

Thank you for inspiring me,
congabebe