6/8 patternORIGIN OF THE 6/8 TIME SIGNATURE

[zaragemca]

The origin of the 6/8 time signature have to do with the Yorubas which create a sophisticated drumming pattern for which the missionaries(which were the first one to have peacefull contact with that Civilization)have to subdivide the 3/4 time sig.,in order to better codify and understand the syncopation and contra syncopation involved in that type of music,after that it was incorporated in to church music and general music,Ernesto Lecuona introduced the music in to Classical,and Mongo Santamaria(Afro-Blue) incorporating it in to Afro-Jazz.



Edited By zaragemca on Nov. 10 2003 at 14:30

[James M]

The earliest 6/8 I've heard in Europe music is from the Spanish Baroque period (1600's) where you do get alot of hemiola (more than in any other European music up to the) but not much sesquialtera. Definately the African Connection there with the moorish conquests spreading north african cultures. Traditional Celtic music is very often in 6/8, but there is almost never any hemiola and no cross rhythms and meters. I don't remember ever seeing the use of 6/8 before european excursions into Africa. I never thought of that before.

I know that alot of musicologists (african and non-african) use the 12/8 rather than 6/8 to describe the music. When you think in 12/8, you get a bar of 4 beats subdivided into triplets, and a better since of "rhythmic completion" for the different parts. However, Cuban understanding of clave divides it in two distinct parts, and so it is better to think in 6/8.

In west african music, is it true that the clave is thought of as not having a specific beginning or ending? That is, you can take any one stroke of the clave and have that be the pick up to the main beat-the next stroke of the clave? The nature of the clave would be more cyclic than linear, and 12/8 would be a better description?

Thanks in advance for any input!
-James

(edited for clarity)



Edited By James M on 1080436535

[congastu]

Hey James,
More great info!! As far as the west african stuff is concerned, there is something in that. Ive played with traditional troupes since I was a little one, and a lot of times the one was wherever the leader put it. [ie, your playing your part, and at any place in the bar the djembe player could give the call and you have to go into the break, or change of rhythm]. To that extent, I always think of West African music being quite circular, as opposed to Afro-cuban rhythms, which seem more angular. As for Brazilian gear- think of an egg rolling down a hill!
As far as Celtic rhythms [and in particular , the bodhran] go, they are usually linked quite closely to the melody so that you are following the strings or wind instruments rather than pinning down the beat for them to play over. Interestingly, Ive come across a number of Indian drums that are identical to the bodhran, and I believe the Celtic connection runs all the way to Asia. Makes you wonder... sometimes I think music is like a river: its hard to know where one thing starts and the other ends, but it follows its own stream and we are just its servants.
peace and love
Stu

[Johnny Conga]

Ok I know we got some seriously educated people here. But what the #### does "hemiola" and "sesquialtera" mean....for us that have the need to know......don;t get too deep now JC JOHNNY CONGA.... ???

[James M]

Hemiola = any change from 6/8 feel to 3/4 feel or vice versa
X..X..|X.X.X.

Sesquialtera is playing 6/8 on top of 3/4
X..X..|X..X..
X.X.X.|X.X.X.

You can especially here sesquialtera in Saya music from Bolivia.
Llorando se Fue is a great one.



Edited By James M on 1080498951

[CongaCaja]

another explanation and example see...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemiola

cjk

[James M]

You could be right about that asian connection. You can make these connections in Brazil:

*pandeiro and rabeca are of Middle Eastern origin (riq, rebab). There is a bit of Middle Eastern cultural influence in the Sertão of the Northeast. There are gypsies (ever seen the "Bye-Bye Brasil"?) and middle eastern style rugs in alot of market places. The Nordeste rabeca music is unmistakeable in that respect.

*shaker instruments are of indigenous origin (except caxixi), and the bass drums are used in many Amerindian cultures so the surdo and zabumba could be indigenous as well. Pífano flutes are also indigenous. Reco-reco could be indigenous

*Atabaque, ago-gô, caxixi, cuica, timbal (could be mestizo) are African. Berimbau style chordophone instruments are found in many different parts of the world and may or may not have been brough over from Africa, but a local development. The berimbau was originally used as in markets to get customer~s attention, and was only recently added to the capoeira Roda (despite an old doctored drawing). Only after it's entrance into Brazilian capoeira was it found in African Capoeira.

*For the cuica, the indigenous Columbians as well as the Portuguese (I think) have a friction drum, but much larger, but the Brazilian cuica is African in style with the stick on the inside instead of out.

*The cavaquinho, repenique (I think), and violão are Iberian.

*tamborim and viola (10 string guitar) are probably local developments. I've never heard of the tamborim being used before modern Samba

*Sanfonia (accordian) is European, but a very popular instrument in the northeast. Could be argued that before bossa nova, the accordian was the most popular melodic instrument.

*Caixa drums could be indegenous because there are so many SA cultures that used side drums, but Europeans also had side drums, so it could go either way.

[percomat]

i dont know if this really is on the mark of your discussion, but i have a question about the 6/8 clave. we talk about clave as one figure, but if you play rumbaclave in 4/4 and 6/8 there will actually be a theoretical distinction; the third stroke (if you play tree-two) will be closer to the two-bar. i couldn`t help registrer that many street-rumberos play clave in this way (sometimes it reminds about the sonclave 2-3), even if it is a seemingly 4/4 guaguanco. my question is therefore; can we talk about the framework 6/8 (f.e. columbia) and 4/4 (guaguanco) implies in cuban rumba? ???

[percomat]

? forgot to log in

[zaragemca]

As I said before 6/8 was needed for better codification of the syncopation,contra syncopation involved in this drumming patterns,but it could be marked on 4/4 time signature.The Clave on Guaguanco was needed becouse the original percussionists in Cuba didn't know about time-signature,so they did their best in developing a guiding patterns to play.Tha Yorubas created a time signature(not with this name) for this patterns,but I'm going to way for somebody to come out with the answer.Just to make the post more interesting. ???



Edited By zaragemca on 1080589956

[James M]

Man, you got me stumped on that one! I'll have to do some checking.

One of the things I like about ethnomusicology is that as a "westerner" in the "western music tradition" all the huge theoretic foundations of the music and the vastness of the repertoire and music theory blinds you to the fact that it is an artificially imposed system based on artificially imposed scales (the 12 Tone Equal Temperment system) and artificial aesthetivs and barely succeeds in translating to and explaining other systems. Oranges and newspapers! I'm playing in a Javanese Gamelan Orquestra and I have to throw alot of preconcieved notions out of the window.

Have you seen C K Ladzekpo's site?

http://cnmat.cnmat.berkeley.edu/~ladzekpo

The Ewe philosophy of polyrhythms and facing life challenges is mind opening.

[congastu]

Its getting deeper!
When I was a kid, learning to play out in Bakau, The Gambia, my teacher , Jose Antonio DJalo, used to sing to me, and whatever he sung, I had to copy.
There was no such thing as counting, or time signature- it was all about the melody of the instrument, learning to express oneself through it. I only got on to conventional theory later in life, and even today a rhythm only sinks in when I can think of it as a song in its own right. So I suppose my answer is Phonetics- going right back to the idea of talking drums, communication.

[zaragemca]

This was part of many subjects which they keep from others becouse they didn't want that music and the drums(Bata),to be used out the Civilization purpose.

[congastu]

By the way, the compound we used to stay in- Kelebis Kunda- was one time home of cult band Ifang Bondi ["be yourself"] who local legend had it where the inspiration for Youssou NDour and the Super Etoile. Its well documented how they , along with bands such as Orchestra Baobab were greatly influenced by Cuban music in their early days before looking to their own traditions, and creating the sounds we know call Mbalax. [ check out the Super Etoiles "DJamil" album for some of the most sublime percussion youll ever hear]. Now, with so much more communication and access to media across the world, I wonder how long before the cycle shifts again and we hear music coming out of Cuba etc with really strong [modern!] west african rhythms and instrumentation. Is it happening already?
As far as bell patterns and claves go, I dont know if we can pin it down to one tribe [ although I understand the Yoruba have strong links to Cuba]. You can hear the 6/8 cowbell part in rhythms from all over the diaspora, and only recently a mate from Ghana was telling me that the Son clave DEFINATELY came from Kpanlogo drums.
I didnt necessarily believe him, though: in Kelebis, we had drummers from Gambia, Senegal, Liberia, Ghana and Guinea Bissau, and youd never get the same story twice!! The only thing everyone agreed on was- "lets Play!!"

[congastu]

PS back on the celtic tip, any one checked out Afro-Celt Sound System?
Its like the two things were meant to go together!