Doubles-strokes again - Doubles as coming from heel-toe motion

[Simon B]

I demonstrated my double-strokes to a Cuban congero (see other post). I am very far from mastery, but can get some rudiments out of them useful enough to incorporate in my playing. He showed me what he said was the established method in Cuba and suggested that I practise it regularly for a couple of months, then evaluate this method as compared to my own (he was of the firm belief that there was nothing wrong with using your own method if you found it superior in tone and efficiency than the established route, but that you need to have tried the 'way' so as to be able to compare).

Now my own 'way' to produce the double - no doubt a highly amateur method which I have been working on hard for the last two months in particular (had given up a year ago through lack of success!) - is to raise the hand using ONLY the wrist, no forearm movement (forearms just slightly above edge of drum), and to let it drop, simple as that. Raise it higher to get the open slap. I noticed from the videos of Gio and Anga that they put forearm into it but I assumed this to be only necessary at the great speeds which they could attain. My Cuban friend (thank you by the way Javier for the tips) said that the movement ultimately comes not from a plain drop and bounce but more a heel push in and a toe drag back, with forearm withdrawing at last minute (so going back and forward slightly). When he did this slowly the movement was exaggerated: when he did them quickly, it was not obvious, but there none the less. He was still not plainly dropping the hand like I was, but pushing the forearm and hand in onto the edge of the drum for the first open tone, the bounce which allowed the raise and then dragging it back to 'catch' the drum. So the whole movement is similar to heel-toe on the conga head.

Again, I've practiced this tonight, and will take up his suggestion of doing so for some time and comparing it to my own hotch-potch method - but I feel that the 'way' is going to be ultimately a lot more controlled and more efficient. For a start it resembles how I was taught to do doubles on the snare drum. Secondly it comes from someone who, in his playing in the gig the previous night, demonstrated that he is a very fine percussionist!

Sorry to confuse the very beginners, and perhaps to bore the pants off some of the highly experienced and adept drummers on this forum! But what reactions are there? Have I been shown the 'way' of the doubles?

Simon B

[Johnny Conga]

Giovanni's style of doubles is done the way you described. It's kind of almost a "drag-pull-bounce" . Remember Gio learned this from Changuito when he was 15. He is now 31 and you know where he's at. I find that doubles are very hard and take a lot of practice. 5 stroke doubles are really good once you get it going , now try 5 strokes in singles and work for speed. these are cool too. #### I gotta go to my home country(Cuba) before I die to check these bad ass mo-fo's out down there. A friend just told me about a 9 year old who was playing 4 congas like he was already a man and a pro, very scary was his words, so you'll be hearing about this kid in a few years, so get to practicing, fellas, there coming up behind you and very FAST!......JC JOHNNYCONGA... :;):

[Simon B]

Thank you for the feedback Johnny. I'm presuming the Gio/Changuito 'way' is your way too. I've been working today on doing these doubles and also palm-toe doubles in the middle of the skin. I remember Yoni said in a posting to this forum that he remembers the palm-toe roll being called the 'fish'. I now understand why. The forearm slides in and then slightly away, like a slippery fish in and out of water, rather than just falling from a raised height up and down (Javier corrected me here too). I'm already attaining more speed.

Simon B

[Simon B]

By the way JC what is the story on the Giovanni/Changuito meeting? How did a 15 yr old Pueto Rican get to know a Cuban master percussionist so well?

Simon

[Johnny Conga]

Hi ..Puerto Rican musicians and Cuban musicians have always known of each other. Gio's pops was the one who suppossedly sent him to Cuba to study with Changuito, at the time. This is the story I know..It is possible they met in Puerto Rico when Changuito was touring with Los Van Van. Also know that Gio was with Batacumbele right after his stay in Cuba, at the age of 16-17. Songo was the new thing as well as Areito and La Onda Nueva.....JC JOHNNY CONGA... :;):

[tamboricua]

Hi guys,

Hope all is well! Giovanni and Changuito were introduced back in the 1980's by non other than Angel "Cachete" Maldonado, leader of the group Batacumbele. Batacumbele were in Cuba to play at the Festival in Varadero. I treasure my video copy of this concert. Changuito have been couple of times in Puerto Rico for the Heineken Jazz Festival and for the Festival de Percusión at the Conservatorio, but never did when he was with Los Van Van.

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

[Simon B]

Thanks for feedback Jorge and JC. So what does the 17yr old Giovanni sound like on these early recordings? Pretty much the same? Batacumbele is on my list now.

Simon

[tamboricua]

Check their stuff, you will dig it! Yes, Giovanni always shines in everything he does, even back then! In the style of songo that Batacumbele did, he did have a lot of room to be himself. "Cachete" was the original tumbador in the group, but when he discovered Giovanni, he stepped out from the tumbador's chair and the rest it's history. The exactly same thing happened when Giovanni left to join E. Palmieri's band and Richito Flores took over the tumbador chair.

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

[Johnny Conga]

Gracias Jorge ...now I remember that version. You know your memory just changes with age and time. At least mine seems to be. ??? Anyway you look at it there was a definite connection with Changuito and Gio as you can see in their video where they "mirror" each other for 20 minutes..now that's Incredibe!.....JC JOHNNY CONGA...

[tamboricua]

Anyway you look at it there was a definite connection with Changuito and Gio as you can see in their video where they "mirror" each other for 20 minutes..now that's Incredibe!.....JC JOHNNY CONGA...

Definitely, there is a big connection between the two. That video is a killer! Also, I admire a lot the mutual respect they pay to each other. Like Giovanni said, "Changuito is like another father for him".

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio



Edited By tamboricua on 1082671870

[freddie]

Hey JC, stay in touch. Still with Robertito, learning everyday. Still in Washington? This Freddie, your mentoree in California. Still don't really get the double. I'm at [email]fredmorales@hotmail.com.[/email] Write when you have a chance. Just went to Paris and gigged wth a Cuban sextet (maracas only), but had a blast. Peace and Tumbas. best to maggie. Un pakin...Freddie

[congastu]

I use that heel toe motion for double stroke rolls myself and it works fine- only thing Ive noticed is that there is more emphasis on the first beat of the double. When I watch Giovanni, it seems that there is equal emphasis on each, which makes them so distinctive. Not even Anga seems to get them in the same way [ although did any of the Uk crew see him on Jools Holland a few years ago with Cachaito- possibly the best solo Ive ever seen!]
On a similar note, I lent out my book for "mano a mano" so I cant remember exactly, but on those double-doubles [which Im nowhere near getting] isnt there something of a triplet feel? Is that the key to playing them and can anyone shed further light on this?
Thanks in advance
peace and love, Stu

[Simon B]

Didn't see Anga on Jools Holland, Stu - wish I had! I'm told he was awesome at the Leeds College Jazz Conference earlier this month too!

The Mano a Mano booklet does suggest you try the double 'attacks' in triplet as well as straight feel, yes.
Thinking back to the video - and people on this forum have said this before - there is no effort made to explain what is the deceptive little movement to get the basic double. Still, what gems we get from this master we should treasure!

Simon B

[congastu]

Ill second that one simon!
I just get the feeling Im missing a little bit in the execution when it comes to those doubles- like you say, theres something deceptive in the movement. I would hazard a guess that Angas technique comes from the root you described earlier, but with Giovanni its slightly different [maybe!!]
By the way, I recorded that night on Jools and if I find the tape [which worryingly has gone missing] Ill pass it on. Anga is just electric- he puts so much soul into what hes doing that it sends shivers down your spine!
Hope all is well Yorkshire way- Stu

[Johnny Conga]

You know guys sometimes I wonder if it's just a Physical thing. You know Hands come in a variety of sizes and shapes and it seems to me over my many years of playing and seeing other drummers that the ones that have the "smallest" hands seem to be the faster. Ex. Gio, Ritchie. Though Roberto Quintero has big hands he is very fast also. You needed to start playing doubles like when you were 8 years old....smile to get them where we need them to be today. I'm 55 my hands are still fast and my doubles aren't as strong as they need to be, so I keep at it, hoping to "break through the wall". I can do them but there no where near Gio's speed or cleanliness in attack. But then again I would have to practice 5 hours a day to maybe get close to him, but that ain't gonna happen. So i keep at it ??? ...JC JOHNNY CONGA...