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Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:24 am**

Hello my fellow congueros,

I would like to open a debate and gather a collection of your wise opinions on, I think, one of the most difficult and intractable aspect of Afro-Cuban percussion.

I have been researching this matter with a few masters and it seems to be an inexhaustible subject. I was very surprised not to see it discussed more here, but was quite daunted myself to open such a subtle and difficult subject to put into words.

I was finally compelled to do it when I bought Laurent Lamy's new book and DVD last week. It is quite an incredibly precious ressource with, as far as I can tell, very good and accurate presentation of loads of Afro-Cuban traditional rhythms. It has 43 variations of the Salidor for the Havana guaguanco alone! And there are all really good and useful. Great stuff!
Now when I played the backing track he provides you for practising the stuff, I was really shocked to hear all the instrument played by a computer on a straight grid, making the recording absolutely stiff!
I was so disappointed, I was hoping to have some nice practise (at a reasonable tempo) with a nice backing track. Unfortunately half of the story is missing, and this is where after this lenghty introduction, I go into the subject itself. Rumba is not just pattern it is also a feel, and it is just as important!!!

All you great masters know that of course, but I think for most players it is an incredibly overlooked side of things which makes all the difference. It is the reason why, we students marvel at the pros, thinking I can play all of those patterns but it just doesn't have that quality that the masters display.

I will share with you the fruits of my painstaking research but please contribute and enlight me and others through this great forum.

Now what is the feel? One way to look at it is to talk about swing. For example when I was a student at Berklee in the last century we used to say that this or that guy had a great time. In jazz it is simpler. it is the way that the 8th notes are swung. You can write the Jazz swing as a doted 8th followed by a 16th, or more accurately a triplet in which the first two notes are tied. The reality is that those are just approximations and it is up to the player to swing as much as he/she wants. In modern computer sequencer and drum machines you can adjust the level of swing from 50 to 100%. Swing has evolved through time and also depends on the style of Jazz and also from player to player. Tony Williams plays quite flat (low swing close to straight), when Max Roach is closer to the triplet feel, while Dixieland is leans more towards the doted 8th/16th thing.

Now when it comes to rumba things are a lot more complicated because the feel changes within the bar. One easy way to demonstrate this is to ask a rumbero to play a heel/toe pattern : BBTT with LLRR four times over a bar. It will not sound straight, what will normally happen is that the frist B will fall on the beat and the second B will be pulled closer to the first. The first T will fall square in the middle and the second T will be played quite flat. Those first BB will be played with a triplet feel, leaving the third note of the triplet unplayed.
An other example of this is to listen to the Kata/Palitos/Cane Brava/Casacara/Guagua/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. All the notes of the pattern are whether on the beat or in the second part of the BBTT and therefore sound unchanged, except for the last two which often sound like a flam at fast tempos. It is actually not a flam but that feel template expressing itself here. In salsa the cascara is the same but with no flam at the end as the feel is straight.
If you play the usual guaguanco patterns with that feel template you will right a way 'feel' the difference. Play any rumba record and you will hear that the pattern are not played straight at all. The degree to which you swing that thing is a question of tastee and varies.
This is truly polyrhythm, you have a 3 and 4 feel going on at the same time.

Unfortunately things are even more complicated as within the rumba group the players like to pull things in different directions at the same time to emphasize the polyrhythm.

For example in the Columbia, you can play the congas with a feel of three ( that is how we usually learn it, some people even write it as a 6/8 pattern) but you can also play it with a feel of 4 by playing the basic pattern as an 8th followed by two 16th, or any where in between those two feels, where Afro-Cuba lives... You can do the same thing with the Kata pattern, in 4 or swing it towards the 6 feel.
Now the sick thing you can hear in Columbia is that they do both and change it along!!!! Say, the congas start with a 6 feel then the kata deliberately plays with a 4 feel which creates the tension in the rhythm and all the little flams your hear flying around in the rumba. And then during the song they swap!! Sick, but so amazing! And then the quinto flies over all this. That is why you need a very strong a straight clave keeping a reference for everyone.

Another example of this is the Brazilian Samba swing which is so pronounced and yet hard to get at first. In that case, to keep the BBTT example, the first B is on the beat, now the second is actually pushed back towards the first T which falls dead on the upbeat and the second T is pulled closer to the first. If you play the conga book brazilian pattern with that template in mind it will be a revelation.

Of course all of this is something which has been developped over hundreds of years ( or even tens or hundred of thousands) and are part of the culture, if you are born in that culture or sufficiently exposed to it you will end up feeling the feel naturally. All those explanations are just a way to understand ; To actually play the stuff you have to practise and play with people who are already breathing the feel. This is where I was so disappointed not to find it on Laurent's record.
Does any one know of some parctise oriented CDs which have the real rumba feel?

I hope some people will have made it to the end of this post, and that it made some sense. Please correct me and give us more angles to appreciate the true nature of Afro-Cuban music.

Peace and respect to those who have build this tradition and maintain today.

Apparently John Coltrane said that he thought that rumba was the most evolved form improvisation music ever invented...

Hasta la vista

Tone :cool:

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:09 am**

One can only learn so much from books/cd's...
Sure, you will be able to understand in note form and grasp the concept of the technicalities of the patterns etc in Rumba, but true "feeling" and "understanding" does not come from a book or cd. One must realise also that notation and classification of time signatures and parameters for afro cuban music/drumming were incorporated to facilitate musicians and students who did not have this music/culture as part of their own culture in order for them to better understand it. To read and play it is one thing, but there is nothing that compares to the feeling and playing it.
For example, get an anglosaxon percussionist, (no offence to the Anglo brothers out there) who is not an expert is afro cuban forms but knows the patterns, yet is not well versed/experienced in afro cuban forms to play marcha (tumbao) 99% of the time it will be played 'cold' with no 'feeling', get an experienced percussionist well versed in afro cuban forms and the exact same marcha will sound different, this is where feeling - Sentimiento - comes in.
It comes from hours, days, years of sitting behind el Tambor and participating in rumba, understanding its origins, where it came from, why it developed, what where they feeling at that time, the calming of their pain etc Feeling develops on its own based on your participation and development within rumba gatherings provided you understand what it is you are playing, the dancers movements and gestures, the singers lyrics, the callings of the other drums..

I call it feeling 'Africa' inside you. Sentimiento. This will develop through your exposure and practice in rumba.
For me it is important that all my serious students learn rumba, each part of it and understand it before moving on to being able to play with 2 or more drums.
To me, Rumba is the essence of tumbadoras.
Another thing, I know of congueros that are great in rumba, but suck at playing in a band and vice versa, those are 2 seperate things to master, thankfully, I consider myself capable and competant in both fields. But again, it wasnt always so, years of practice, study, dedication and determination and respect will get you there.
Hope Ive made some sense.
If you do not have the resources or people to join to play rumba, I would suggest you getting your hands on recordings by the following people (amongst many others) and try playing the independant parts along with the recording, do this everyday for at least 1-2hrs at minimum, you will find in time, you will understand the feeling.

Los Muñequitos de Matanzas
Lazaro Ros
Los Papines
Celeste Mendoza
Grupo Yoruba Andabo
Ilu Aña
Merceditas Valdez
Conjunto Folklorico Nacional de Cuba
Carlos Embales
Conjunto de Clave y Guaguanco
Afrocuba de Matanzas
Congo Luanda
Ojun Degara
Oba Ilu
Calixto Callava
Saldiguera y Virulilla
Los Roncos Chiquitos

Those are but a small list of a many great rumba/afro cuban ensembles. I think that would be a good starting point.

Hope Ive been of some help/made sense. Pls forgive my rambling.

Edited By ABAKUA on 1134014140

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:14 am**

Also would be good for you to research and see if you can obtain recordings and information by the great Villamil family from Matanzas, Cuba.

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:07 am**

Hey Tone, I won't be of much help with a lot of your questions as I was never trained in music but instead learned from a man from Puerto Rico who taught me in a more traditional method, just listening, playing and immersion. I totally agree with you about feel, the greatest compliment I ever received as a conguero was the day that I was told that I really "felt" the music. This was from an accomplished conguero also from Puerto Rico and so it meant a lot to me. Those computer driven practice tracks drive me crazy as well, it just sucks all the life out of the music. In regards to some practice CD's I don't really know of any "practice" CD's but in addition to the groups that Abakua mentioned check out Pancho Quinto and Jose Mangual Sr. I play along with some of their stuff and really any CD can be a practice CD.

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:33 am**

Tone:
Now what is the feel? One way to look at it is to talk about swing.

Hi Tone, Abakua, all,
A couple of years ago I facilitated the compiling of a glossary of terms in the hope that the Yahoo Latinjazz group could converse in a common. It was a joint effort by several in the group. You can find it in the "Data Base" at the homepage. Here’s what’s in there for "feel":

"FEEL: A term best reserved for the most subjective aspects of playing rhythm. There are two main concerns when addressing feel in clave music. First, is the execution of accents. Second, are the subtle substitution of triple pulses for duple pulses and the substitution of duple pulses for triple pulses. This second and more complex level of feel is not easily represented by notation systems."

Straight, sequenced percussion parts, with no accents, definitely sounds like a machine. Rumba parts played with that kind of drum machine sound is especially bizarre, because like you say, there is a good deal of feel involved with rumba. I can see where such a mechanical "rumba" would grate on your nerves. Those sequenced-rumba-play-alongs would sound so much easier on the ears if they included accents. Drum machines can be programmed with accents.

The substitution of triple pulses for duple pulses and vice versa can be accomplished with a drum machine. It’s just rather tedious. A drum machine or other sequencer can be helpful with getting more comfortable with triple/duple combinations. They also are just generally good for practicing in consistent time, especially if you want to do overdub recording that involves a click track.

The New Harvard Dictionary of Music calls swing "an intangible rhythmic momentum in jazz", adding that "swing defies analysis; claims to its presence may inspire arguments". The only specific description offered is that "triplet sub-divisions contrast with duple sub-divisions". Three-over-two; the most basic rhythmic cell of clave, is the root of swing feel too.

I believe there is actually a third level of "feel" that involves strokes that reside in-between a triplet and a duplet. I’m reminded that I didn’t include this aspect in the glossary on purpose; I didn’t want to deal with such an ethereal subject, there was enough controversy involved with the project as it was. In retrospect, that was a mistake.

This level of feel is realized in hip-hop drum sequencing. There’s a precise setting that the hip-hop programmers found that makes their "drum beats" swing. Michael Spiro and I took part in a kind of "blindfold tes"t initiated by Kevin Moore. Kevin programmed the itotele bata drum part for chachalokuafun. There were about a dozen versions ranging from the part played in straight duple subdivisions to straight triple subdivisions. Both Mike and I chose the same in-between triple and duple example, which coincidentally was the same setting the hip-hoppers use. I don’t remember the number that setting is known as. I’ll ask Kevin again what it’s called.

I believe the only way to really play in the rumba feel is to play with those rumberos who play in that feel. If you ever get a chance to go to Cuba and hang out with some of the guys, for even a couple of weeks, you can’t help but hear rumba like that. The good news is that we have CDs to listen to and play along with.

OK, so this is just a long way of saying play along with the CDs.

-David

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:04 pm**

je Tone, this is a good subject, and if you look in older discussions here you'll find out that I've been asking about some of the same stuff, concerning rumba, quinto and improvisation. I also see the rumba patterns (and especially before salidor open the rumba, the palm-tip-stuff, the manoteo) played as somehow similar to a brazilian samba feel, somewhere in between 16's and triplets. And this is interesting, but I couldn't say to much about it, maybe you could? Anyway I have something that maybe could be to help for you, and that is that clave could be played in 6/8 (snsnnsnsnsn (s-sound, n-not sound)) and 4/4 (snnsnnnsnnsnsnnn) or something in between. One of my teachers actually learned me playing guaguanco where salidor was playing in (what I understood as) 6/8 and tres-dos in 4/4. Sometimes when I heard more or less typical guaguanco in Havana it seemed to me that the clave who started it was played in 6/8 even if guaguanco was played (the tree last strokes had an even distance (as in 6/8) even if they played tree-two clave). I don't know if this make sense, but it seems to me that there is a lot of investigating in between 6/8 and 4/4 time, and not necessarily one of them.

I also have another comment, of what makes rumba so funky, because the 16-patterns are not necessarly "filled up", as they would be in typical western, for example, drumsetplaying, where a steady 16 or 8 pulse would kept on the hihat. Since the cascara patterns and the clave-figure are not filled up it allows negotiation of the underlying rhythm. I think John Miller Chernoff say something interesting in his "African rhythm and African sensibility" (1978). Ok, peace out.

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:32 pm**

hello brothers,

just an early comment:
The reason why I was looking for something outside of all the records I already have (Clave y Guauanco, Yoruba Andabo, Patato, Los Papines, a rumba record of Mongo, Los Muniquitos,...) is the tempo.

On all those records the guaguanco is played so fast that it is hard for learners to really hear and feel the groove. The Yambus I have are of course slower but it is quite a different thing from the guaguanco or columbia. So I was hoping to be able to hear that feel and play along at slower tempos.

The faster you go, the less a clave played in 6/8 and in 4/4 will sound different. Where slower you can really hear the difference.

The best option would be to play with rumberos who have the feel, but it is really hard to find those people in London.

Thanks for all the comments, they are very useful.

Peace

tone :cool:

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:13 pm**

If you want to hear clarity in guaguanco or rumba , the very early Munequitos, from the 60's, on their albums u can hear the parts very distincley. Today's Rumba is much more intense and even more complicated as the rhythm itself has of course progressed. I agree with David and Abakua, Thank you both for the insight. But in reality, if you want to play serious Rumba you go to Cuba and do the hang, or you go to NYCity and do the hang, cause Cuba is in NYC too. I can't imagine a "mechanical rumba" and as David put it how "stiff" it must sound. Rumba is "culture" of groups of people in Cuba , that have been "born" into it. You can't expect to reach that level of proficiency,thru records or video, YOU have to be there!.... I for one have never been to Cuba, except for Guantanamo(which I wouldnt consider Cuba, especially with a McDonalds there), I learned on the streets of the Bronx, and today on those streets they are now calling it "Rumba Invento", so the Rumba continues to expand. If you were to hear this form of Rumba, you may like it, or you may not, according to my Bro's in the Bronx, it's described to me, as "chaotic rumba"......there is a "competitive" attitude also when playing Rumba, in showing off ones skills on the Quinto or tumbadora, etc.....and even hanging in Cuba does not guarentee that you can play on the level that they are on, they live it , eat it , and breath it everyday.....my 3 congas..."JC" Johnny Conga...

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:24 pm**

Oh BTW ..there is such a thing as "Havana style Rumba"(Los Papines) and Rumba de Matanzas(Los Munequitos)....totally different styles.....though the Matanzas style has become more dominant/popular now........."JC" Johnny Conga....

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:02 pm**

In reallity there were in Cuba more styles of aproach to the rumba that what is called(one in Matanzas and one in Habana),when I was growing up with this rumberos,(each quinto player),have its aproach to the vocalization of the lead and that itself would have to be evolved and up/graded becouse the person which was beat up at one time would come the next time with something more sophisticated in order to win,(this was observed by me in the rumba setting and the Comparsas(Carnival setting) for years),also this would happen with the lyrics and later with the way to dance it...They didn't have the knowledge of musical/terms,but they had the percutive foundation that ours ancestor brought from Africa and continued developing in the 'Cabildos',Araras,Carabaly,Bantu,Mandinga,etc.All of them which differents aproaches in to it and learning from each other,,(this is the reason which I know that there is not such thing as one style of rumba in Habana),but there is not point for me in arguing with somebody which never witnessed this for years.As I said before I was blessed becouse I was born in to it,so to get the real thing,and later being able to translate the musical terms created by the westerns/musicians in order to understand the metric,feeling and parameters of this multiple percutive approaches to articulate this rhythms..Dr. Zaragemca

Edited By zaragemca on 1134071598

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:23 pm**

I didn't say there was "one style" of Rumba. I said there is the way Los Papines play Rumba versus, the Rumba of Los Munequitos....I do know that are other "forms" of Rumba, that xist, like in Santiago, but rarely heard...so the focus over the years HERE in the states is that there are 2 "styles"....Havana and Matanzas.....and of course time has changed this view..."JC" Johnny Conga.....BTW this is not an arguement it's called a "discussion".....

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:44 pm**

Saludos,brother JC, I was not refering to you or anybody else in this forum,the reference which I'm talking about have been in some articles for years,but usully the people writting those articles never witnessed anything in that respect.(At that time in Cuba,many people including musicians,didn't want to be catched dead in those places were real rumba was taking place,becouse the mentality at that time in relation to this culture..Dr. Zaragemca

Edited By zaragemca on 1134071143

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:31 pm**

Tone: "... I was hoping to be able to hear that feel and play along at slower tempos.... The best option would be to play with rumberos who have the feel, but it is really hard to find those people in London."

Hi Tone,
Alas, I'm not aware of any instructional materials available that have what you are looking for. If there's any chance of finding rumberos in London, that's probably your easiest route. There may be some study-in-Cuba-for-two-weeks program available to you. As has been said already here, I don't see any way of getting around the need to interact with other rumberos who have the desired feel.
-David

Posted: **Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:24 am**

This is such a valuable discussion for many of us, especially those of us who did not grow up someplace like Cuba or NYC. I've taken a lot of classes, but most students are at the same intermediate level that I am and also lack the true rumba feel, so that doesn't help (as far as feel) and the teachers have never gone into the feel aspect, really, probably because it's such a hard thing to teach. I think those who grow up around something like rumba have no idea how difficult it is to pick up the feel as an adult. I can hear that my playing doesn't have the right feel, but what to do if you don't have an opporunity to play with real rumberos? As others have mentioned, listening to CD's is an option, but guaguanco is so fast, and it's very difficult to hear the tumba or segunda in isolation.

I have a big request of any of our rumberos here. Get a friend to play claves and record and upload a simple, stripped-down recording here of a couple of basic medium-tempo guaguanco rides (Mantanzas, Havana, whatever - obviously there are countless variations), both for tumba + clave, and segunda + clave. Throw in the notation and hands/sounds while you're at it (though we'll understand it's just a sketch, rhythmically-speaking).

Someone, please? I know it's painful for you to listen to us playing this without the right feel - it's even more painful for us to play it knowing it's wrong and not being able to get it right.

Please?

Thanks,

Taiko

Posted: **Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:52 am**

Taiko,
You live in the Bay Area. There's plenty of good teachers there. You can obtain what you are requesting in a lesson. Play clave slowly and have your teacher play the part you are learning very slowly. The feel can only be passed person-to-person, in-person.

-David

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Rumba feel - the subtleties of the real rumba