Rhythms in the conga book

[davidpenalosa]

Yep, he admits to the difference, and says,, "to the Cubans, everything is 3-2". Actually, I'm glad I learned the clave from both sides.. I feel it has rounded me.

Interesting about Mike though,, When he taught it at the camp, he taught that the low drum came around with the big final tone on the three - if it's a bar of 4, rather the one - how I was taught..
Again, I don't mind learning to feel the accented tone from both sides of clave.. Our group is all going through process of re-learning pretty much everything you brought up. :laugh:

Hi Windhorse,
I'm glad your group is struggling to re-learn the music from the perspective of clave's rhythmic sequence. If you ever add a chord progression (guitar, bass, or piano) you will already be well prepared to deal with the 3-2, 2-3 perspective of the harmonic sequence. If anyone out there is confused about this, I'm happy to to elaborate.

To be sure, the 3-2, 2-3 concept helped me understand the binary nature of clave. Before I grasped 3-2, 2-3, I was clueless.

It sounds like Mike said that ponche (low drum in guaguanco) is on beat 4, using this beat scheme:

1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4+

The true beat scheme though is this:

1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a

However, because of the common practice of writing the music in 2/2, but using the 4/4 time signature, ponche is called "beat 4". This is how Mike Spiro, John Santos, Rebeca Mauleon and many others count it. I'd like to acknowledge that those three musicians have indirectly been my teachers and I wouldn't be in a position of critiquing their theories if they hadn't blazed the trail before me.

Ponche is in fact an off-beat (2+ and 4+). Ponche feels and functions as an off-beat; it’s the upbeat, or pick-up into each half of clave (measure). Calling an off-beat a "beat" has spread confusion concerning clave’s basic structure. Latin musicians have dealt with this problem by calling a beat a "pulse". To their way of thinking clave has eight beats and four pulses.

This practice just propagates more confusion though. Beat is universally understood to be the fundamental time referent in music. You don’t hear musicians say "off-pulse", "down-pulse", "up-pulse", or "back-pulse". The common terms are off-beat, downbeat, upbeat and back-beat. How does one reconcile the understanding that the back-beat falls on beats 2 and 4, while at the same time ponche is "beat 4"? You can't reconcile it. Therein lies the problem.

I would say rather than "to the Cubans, everything is 3-2", the 3-2, 2-3 concept does not apply to folkloric music from Cuba, Brazil, Africa, etc.
Sincerely,
-Theory Geek :O

[davidpenalosa]

JC, WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE MOZAMBIQUE VIDEOS BY KIM ATKINSON. ARE THEY WORTH GETTING?

Hey SkinDeep,
I recommend Kim Atikinson's mozambique videos. They are very easy to understand. Kim breaks the parts down very methodically. There's no way you will not get it. Kim was my first conga teacher and I'm performing on the videos (a rather stiff performance by me I must admit). Kim presents the rhythms within the 3-2, 2-3 perspective.
-David

[JohnnyConga]

I have in my possession the actual last video of "El Pello" el Afrokan teaching Mozambique to a friend of mine in Havana its over 2 hours long and he shows all the stuff he knows and at the end of it his son shows a new style of Mozambique, which by the way is on his new Cd. "Pello" played a lot of the rhythms with stick in hand, also....."JC" Johnny Conga...

[SkinDeep]

THKS, DAVIDPENALOSA!!! I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT THOSE FOR A WHILE. I JUST ORDERED THE TOMAS CRUZ VOL.2 MAINLY FOR THE MOZAMBIQUE AND THE PILON.
JC, DID YOU SAY EL PELLO? HOW ABOUT A COPY HERMANO, TALK TO ME MAN!!!

[davidpenalosa]

You are welcome Skin Deep,
I had quite a bit of input in the Tomas Cruz instructional conga series. I'm credited with "conceptual guidence", so this is obviously something I endorse. The Atkinson mozambique video series shows the original large comparsa-like ensemble arrangement. It also shows the NYC mozambique used in salsa, which is an entirely different "animal".
-David

[SkinDeep]

YEAH THE MANNY OQUENDO STYLE. THKS FOR EVERYTHING, I'LL BE GETTING BOTH NO DOUBT.



Edited By SkinDeep on 1142998320

[JohnnyConga]

On the Latin Jazz Club site on the left hand side of the main page if you scroll down go to th eword "Terms". See if that helps..."JC" Johnny Conga...

[davidpenalosa]

Hello all,
Theory Geek here.

I found the terms at LatinJazzClub.com (taken from "The Latin Tinge" by John Storm Roberts). I like Robert’s books. I think that his definition of "tumbao" is pretty good. However, I have problems with his definition of "clave":

1. Clave An offbeat 3/2 or 2/3 rhythmic pattern over two bars, the basis of all Cuban music, into which every element of arrangement and improvisation should fit.
2. Clave is an African-derived pattern with equivalents in other Afro-Latin musics.
3. The common 3/2 Cuban Clave varies in accentuation according to the rhythm being played.
4. Clave seems to be part of the inspiration for the two-bar bass patterns in modern black music.
5. 2/3 reverse clave is less common, though the guaguancó uses it.

I added the numbers. I’ve been going on about 3-2, 2-3 clave for awhile, so I’ll pass for the moment on #1. #3: what? Can anybody explain to me how clave is accented differently in different situations? Perhaps he means "strokes" instead of "accents". #5 is wrong in terms of guaguancó.

So, what do I think is a good definition of "clave"? (glad you asked.) Check out the "Clave System – Glossary of Terms" at:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/latinjazz/files/

This is found under "files" at the Yahoo Latinjazz e-group. Several forum members worked on it, including Zeno and myself. Even though this is not the "Standard Pattern" thread, here goes:

CLAVE:

1. A Spanish word meaning "code", "key"; as in the key to a puzzle, or a "keystone"; the wedge shaped stone placed at the top of an arch which locks all the other stones in place.

2. A musical term of Cuban origin, for the rhythmic principles originating in Sub-Saharan Africa. The clave principle prescribes the combining of cross-beats with main beats in a precise way, which creates an essential tension/release dynamic. A cycle of four main beats is divided into two rhythmically opposing cells of two main beats each. The two cells (halves) of clave function as balanced opposites like the poles of a magnet, off-beat/on-beat, tension/release, positive/negative, etc. A sense of momentum is created from the continual alternation between the two cells.

What follows are examples of two bell patterns which demonstrate the two cells (halves) of clave as a balance of opposites:

Example A:

XoXoXX oXoXoX standard ("6/8") bell pattern
XoXoXo XoXoXo six-beat cycle
oXoXoX oXoXoX off-beat six cycle

1+a2+a 3+a4+a triple pulse structure

The standard pattern is a balance of two cross-beat cycles; the six-beat cycle and the off-beat six cycle. The pattern has two sets of double strokes where it shifts from six to off-beat six (2+, 2a) and back to six again (4a, 1).

Example B:

XoXoXo XXoXoX alternate "6/8" bell pattern
XoXoXo XoXoXo six-beat cycle
oXoXoX oXoXoX off-beat six cycle

1+a2+a 3+a4+a triple pulse structure

This alternate "6/8" bell pattern shifts from the six-beat cycle to the off-beat six cycle two pulses later (3, 3+) than the standard pattern.

The clave principle may be thought of as a type of music theory made up of many rhythmic principles or rules. There are universal principles concerning the general structure of clave music, with more specific principles applicable to the various regional genres and sub-genres. For instance, Nigerian bata and Cuban son share general clave principles, but also have their own particular rhythmic laws.

Composing, arranging and improvising adheres to the clave principle. Each instrumental and vocal part has a fixed relationship to the two cells and a specific contribution to its sense of momentum.

3. A Cuban term for a five-stroke pattern representing the clave principle. The clave pattern is typically played with two hardwood sticks called "claves", but may be played on other percussion instruments as well.

Clave is a binary pattern consisting of two cells. One cell contains three strokes (the three-side) and the other cell, two strokes (the two-side). There are two main clave patterns used in Cuban music: son clave and rumba clave. Each clave pattern may be expressed in triple pulse structure, duple pulse structure, or in some rare cases, a combination of both.

Example A:
3-side 2-side
XoX oXo oXo Xoo son clave
XoX ooX oXo Xoo rumba clave
1+a 2+a 3+a 4+a triple pulse structure

Example B:
3-side 2-side
XooX ooXo ooXo Xooo son clave
XooX oooX ooXo Xooo rumba clave
1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a duple pulse structure

The same syllables or words are used to designate strokes of clave whether in triple or duple pulse structure.

1, 1a, 2+, 3+, 4 son clave
1, 1a, 2a, 3+, 4 rumba clave

[JohnnyConga]

Great Class on clave...Thank you David...."JC" Johnny Conga...

[davidpenalosa]

You are welcome Johnny and thank you! I welcome any critiques.
-David

[Berimbau]

Well David,
As much as I personally like John Storm Roberts, and I DO! He used to send LOTS of his Original cds to play on my old African Rhythms radio show, so continued thanks to him. Yet some of the vague terminology he employs in his books just makes my skin crawl! Now I know that he was writing for general readers, and his book sales are proof enough of his strong commincative powers, but YIKES!!!!
Now I do wish that YOU would write a good introductory book on Cuban music, for you are fast becoming quite the scholar. Anyway, let's here it for your sobering coherence!


Saludos,



Berimbau

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Berimbau,
Sorry I didn't contribute to your "African congueros" thread. I'm in the midst of escrow; selling my wilderness home of 25 years. I'm not on-line as much as I'd like to be these days.

I agree with you about John Storm Roberts. Thanks for your compliment. Coming from a true scholar such as yourself, it means a lot to me.

As a matter of fact, for the past dozen years I've been working (with my editor Peter Greenwood) on a series of eight instructional books concerning clave-based music. I haven't mentioned this in awhile because I'm frustrated that it's taking me so long.
-David

[rumbaman]

Hey how are all of you all do'ing . Much blessings to all . i have'nt been on for a while . I am busted up after work recently , but always glad to read the posts from you all . My instructor always said to me once you get started on the rythum it does not matter 2-3 or 3-2 but it does in the beginning of the rythum . Mostly for ethnic rythums you use 2-3 and for salsa rhythums you use a 3-2 clave . This is not always true though . Latin music is kind of complicated ,but realy not . You play the pulse that you hear ,and as far as the clave goes your tone strokes are ussually on your 2 side is what my instructor said .

rumbaman

[davidpenalosa]

Mostly for ethnic rythums you use 2-3 and for salsa rhythums you use a 3-2 clave .

Hey rumbaman,
I have to say that I disagree with your teacher. The concept of 3-2 and 2-3 clave does not apply to ethnic (folkloric) rhythms. It only applys to popular music (like salsa and Latin jazz) where there's a chord progression. 3-2, 2-3 refers to the relationship of the harmonic progression to clave.
-David

[thomas newton]

Pure Gold Clave discussion - well worth a bump!

How are the books coming along David?