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Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:36 am**

Last question and Im good to go. Im using tomasitos dvd to learn how to play but before this I was using bits and pieces that I got online. I was using heel the video says use bass. Should I re-learn or is it really the same thing? It does have a different sound and the book says that it is important during the manoteo because its louder but I find it easier to rock heel tip than bass tip. What do you guys recomend?

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:48 am**

Greetings TONE74

Bass is completley seperate note than heel or toe...
Do you mean like in a regular Marcha, the note before the final two open tones?

H T S T H T o o > H T S O O B o o

You can play it as bass, light touch, toe or heel.. I play it as bass mostly..

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:23 am**

Yeah, I meant in a regular marcha this dvd tells you to replace your heel strokes with bass strokes because the sound is louder. So it would be
B T B S T B T O O

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:31 am**

I threw an extra B in there by mistake

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:13 pm**

Hi,

there are different styles to play that "heel". Cubans play it with the full hand touching the skin, the same motion and action you do in order to play a bass tone, just a bit softer. Brazilian teacher for example use the heel part of the hand. My personal instructor studied in Cuba and teached me the first version but explained it like this to me in order not to wonder why other teacher might tell something else.

Best regards,

:p Amber

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:39 pm**

TONE74,

I think is good to do what the book says, heel is easier because bass require more pressure to get that punchy sound.. Bass is very important tone to do...You can interchange the different tones when your comfortable with them all..

I hit the bass dead centre with the whole palm, raise the drum with your legs if sitting or I use a bungee tied around my back to tilt it...

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:57 pm**

Most of the great players (at least in Cuba and the States) do the first stroke of the marcha with the whole hand (or at least the whole palm, with the fingers lightly touching). Changuito, Giovanni, Anga, Tomasito, etc. - they all do it (or did for Anga, sadly) pretty much the same. It's much less common to see people using only the bottom of the heel of the palm, near the wrist, with a lot of space/air underneath between the heel and tips of the fingers as I think you've been doing it. Mind you, at a certain level greatness goes beyond specific techique, and you'll come across great players doing all kinds of things beyond the accepted norm and it works for them. This doesn't necessarily mean it's best for you, though.

Although the stroke is similar to a bass, the bass is done in the center of the head and is generally much more driving, whereas the first stroke of marcha is generally more of a relaxed dropping of the hand onto the head much closer to the edge (though, sure, there are times when you might want to drive it harder).

Reasons to use the whole hand:

1. Feel. It's just more solid. It's not so much volume as it is the added lower timbre giving it a heavier, more solid feel.

2. It's much easier to go from the whole left hand first stroke to a muted right hand closed slap, keeping that whole left hand on the drum.

3. I've heard that after years of playing the first stroke with just heel of the palm (and not the whole flat hand), that the bone there and nerves around it, after getting pounded so much, can become damaged and become very painful and really mess up your hand. Just what I've heard.

It's a big challenge to overcome muscle memory if you're already locked into the heel-toe style and want to change to wholehand-toe. Think long term, though, and just do it. Set a metronome to a speed at which you're totally in control and just build from there until you can play along with some recordings. In 3 months you'll be really glad you made the switch.

Edited By taikonoatama on 1175022780

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:54 pm**

It makes sense. I havent been playing that long so I guess it wont be that hard to make the switch. Thanks for the advice

Posted: **Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:39 pm**

The development of the technique have some historical connotations becouse the players in Cuba started playing with only one piece of drum,(so all the articulations have to be performed in the same surface,( I have showed the sample thousands of times to my students),but then a second piece was added to the set,(secundero),and the technique was expanded and with the addition of the bass/tumba, the articulation of the bass was facilitated...There are four/five differents types technique to develop the bass sound,(semi/bass,open bass,close bass,muffled bass,heel bass,etc...It all depends on the resources of the player.Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:34 am**

Hey Tone! I too started using just the heel of my hand for the manoteo. Then I discovered Tomasito's DVD (no teachers anywhere close to me.) where, as you said, they put mucho import on using the whole hand. I have been working on changing and it is very difficult to change once the muscle memory has "taken". I have only been playing 4 years but at 57 years old, it is hard for us old dogs to learn new tricks :p But I will keep on keeping on. Practice practice practice

Just a note: Isn't this site fantastic!! I have never seen anywhere where you can talk with the kind of experts we have in here. Have you looked at some of the threads about history, about vintage congas, and techniques? AND have you ever seen a nicer group of learned people? They actually care, and WANT us new folks to learn? Amazing place. I have learned so much here. My hat is off to all the family on the Congaboard....I am honored to study with you.

Thanks
rick

Posted: **Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:55 am**

Trickyricky!

Couldn't agree more with it!!!

I started to change/ explore my heel toe strokes when I saw some clips and started to be a member at congaplace.com. Yes, it is non stop growth of my technique and joy towards music cause of that.

To Trickyricky's ''just a note'':
Even when I get home frustrated with all other non musical and non groovy things, I made them groovy again when I read posts and responds of others here... So musical and yet so live alike!
....Maybe I'm just too sensitive kind of guy

Keep the Groove!

Primoz

Posted: **Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:40 pm**

I agree 100%, once I found this site I haven't had to looked anywhere else its all here without all the filler. Back to the topic, its not easy switching back its like starting over again but I'm starting to notice that its a better technique and I'm glad I got it early on since I've only been playing for a few weeks. One thing though this conga playing thing is not as easy as it looks. I have a lot more respect for players now. Suave

Posted: **Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:37 pm**

trickyricky wrote:it is hard for us old dogs to learn new tricks :p But I will keep on keeping on. Practice practice practice

rick

Well, isn't it "Tricky" Ricky???

Yeah, I've seen a few that bow the hand and leave the meat of the hand in the air like a big swinging rocker. Looks really weird to me and seems like a bunch of extra effort when you compare to those who use the "Cuban" style with flat hands.

About hitting the basses in the middle of the drum. On djembe yes,, but on a conga you can get a fine bass only an inch or two away from the bearing edge!
Nice little tidbit to be aware of when you're conserving energy. Also, I think it deadens the sound a tiny bit when you hit the drum dead center. Most people do the bass a bit off-center maybe for that reason.

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newbe question: heel vs. bass