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Sometimes I see guys playing the guataca for guaguanco, and other times
people have given me a part to play on a guataca for guaguanco, but I
always seem to forget it, I kind of remember how it goes, but I really
don't think I have it 100% right.

None of my literature has a part written down, so I wanted some input from
the congaboard. Is there even a set part? Or is it some adapted thing like a cinquillo
or some other bell they are putting on there.

I know several bell patterns for other afro-cuban rhythms, and what i see played for rumba is
different.

My teacher will sometimes will play the side of his timbales what he calls the Guataca pattern when we play Guaguanco, and it's just the regular cata pattern played with one hand. It sounds quite different when you play this with one hand as opposed to the normal two hands on cata.
I've also seen a video - maybe it was Rumbambeo, where a guy plays a metal bell with metal striker and just plays upbeat doubles. But, gotta say, I don't like the sound of it on Guaguanco.
The one handed cata pattern,, though that's pretty cool.

the Guataca pattern when we play Guaguanco, and it's just the regular cata pattern played with one hand.

This sounds cool, we mostly use either of 2 cata patterns for guaguanco. Would you play the same pattern the cata player is playing?
Or play a the other one?

where a guy plays a metal bell with metal striker and just plays upbeat doubles.

Yeah, I know this one, and your right, it sounds a little commercial to my ears, too regular. Thats why I
was trying to remember the other patterns

bongosnotbombs wrote:This sounds cool, we mostly use either of 2 cata patterns for guaguanco. Would you play the same pattern the cata player is playing?
Or play a the other one?

Dave only plays one of them. It's the "pointy" one (clave right hand, & later trecio hocket left) as opposed to the "smooth" one (the one you play with Yambu).
Good question though, "would you play the other one if someone is playing cata?"

Wow, this post has me spun around a bit: I did not know guaguanco could have a guataca part. I’m familiar with the guataca part for Bembe. So some questions:

1) What is the guataca (bell) part for guaguanco?
2) When does one play cinquillo? Does it fit w/ both Son and Rumba clave?
3) Can you annotate the trecio hocket pattern?

More to come I’m sure! Thanks…

Pablo, Don't get the wrong impression. There isn't really a bell pattern for Guaguanco. We're just saying, "if you were to pick up a bell and hopefully not offend anyone, what would theoretically play?" Not, "What is THE bell pattern to Guaguanco?" Because there isn't one.
I'm suggesting the Cata pattern played one handed on the bell:
Ix-xx-x-xIx-x-xx-xI
The other one Played on Yambu - and seemingly (to me) mostly Matanzas Guaguanco is:
Ixx-xxx-xIx-x-xxxI
but busier and I would think more difficult to do one handed.

There are two trecio hockets if there are two ways to fit a trecio into the measure:
This one:
I-x-xx-xxI-x-xx-xxI
and:
I-xx-xx-xI-xx-xx-xI

And sure, cinquillo fits with both son and rumba clave quite well. There are also several ways to play a cinquillo.

+pablo+ wrote:Wow, this post has me spun around a bit: I did not know guaguanco could have a guataca part. I’m familiar with the guataca part for Bembe. So some questions:

1) What is the guataca (bell) part for guaguanco?
2) When does one play cinquillo? Does it fit w/ both Son and Rumba clave?
3) Can you annotate the trecio hocket pattern?

More to come I’m sure! Thanks…

Thanks for the reply. I respect the Tradition greatly, but I also like the idea of trying something new!
So the trecio hockets are 2/3 and 3/2 since the pattern is the same.

For the cata: I’m familiar with the ‘Yambu/Matanzas Guaguanco’: |xx-xxx-x|x-x-xxx|

Is this in 2/3? Would 3/2 just be the pattern switched?

For instance the first Cata pattern |x-xx-x-x|x-x-xx-x| switched is
|x-x-xx-x|x-xx-x-x| which is I believe to be cascara in 2/3.

And finally, man, I’ve never heard cinquillo played on anything I’ve listened to. What am I missing? Thanks!

About Cinquillo, I just meant that it might fit.
I've heard cinquillo played on bell on Yuka/Makuta,, and a few Haitian rhythms, but again,, not in a Rumba.
In a Rumba, there would never be 2/3 clave. So, the question about 2/3 wouldn't apply. Though you're obviously right about these patterns having a mirror-image.

+pablo+ wrote:Thanks for the reply. I respect the Tradition greatly, but I also like the idea of trying something new!
So the trecio hockets are 2/3 and 3/2 since the pattern is the same.

For the cata: I’m familiar with the ‘Yambu/Matanzas Guaguanco’: |xx-xxx-x|x-x-xxx|

Is this in 2/3? Would 3/2 just be the pattern switched?

For instance the first Cata pattern |x-xx-x-x|x-x-xx-x| switched is
|x-x-xx-x|x-xx-x-x| which is I believe to be cascara in 2/3.

And finally, man, I’ve never heard cinquillo played on anything I’ve listened to. What am I missing? Thanks!

And finally, man, I’ve never heard cinquillo played on anything I’ve listened to. What am I missing? Thanks![/quote]

Pablo,

I believe you have heard Puertorican Bomba Sicá before, right?

The Cuá plays cinquillo...

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

Yea, I’m on it…bom-ba-tri-go-yo! The fun thing about cinquillo is that I’m counting it in one two three four five one two three four five and it fits effortlessly into two measures of 4/4. 10 beats matching up with an eight count. It’s like playing bembe guataca 6/8 with one hand, and playing the pulse (4/4 or 2/4) with the other. Like we once talked about: in every 6/8 is a 4/4. I may be a simpleton here , but this is something that just gets me going.

Moving on: with the quote “Rumba, there would never be 2/3 clave”

but Thomas Cruz Vol II presents guaguanco with a counter clave (2/3). Is this since it is not a true Rumba (three drummers, three parts)? I thought you could have either 3/2 or 2/3: the direction dictated by the singing.

Thanks for replying!

Just drawing it out as one bar, there's
Ix-xx-xx-I
and here's the other way to play cinquillo
Ixx-x-xx-I
Thus we'll play it twice in a measure, or twice in one clave.
as you can see the feel of these is entirely different, and they're both Cinquillo.
Depends on where you put the one, but they are the same thing. Like Tresillo's inverse.
And speaking of inverses.. "Dr. Clave"!!! Where are you Dave Penelosa?!?
Gonna show up in this thread and spread the word on 2-3 clave and it's absence in Folkloric music?

As an aside... In no way do I disagree with learning 2-3 clave. I think it's an invaluable tool to be able flip the feel of where you put your "one", or where you start your pattern between the "3" and the "1". I mean the "3" of 3-2 clave is the "1" in 2-3. (that's counting 1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a) Of course, lots of modern latin music is 2-3, and stuff like Mozambique and Comparsa are 2-3 in many circles.. So, it's valid,, but I think most of us would argue that it's not folkloric - which in my book encompasses rumba - maybe there's an argument there.. Then again maybe not..

And about the singing and how it fits to clave... Folkloric stuff has no problem whatsoever starting something on the last strike of clave, or the "3" - the gap between the first 3 strikes of clave and the last two, or the bomba note - the second strike of clave.. Or practically any part of clave for that matter. That, to me, is what makes it such a huge challenge to sing folkloric and play clave at the same time.. Wicked tough stuff if you didn't grow up in the tradition.
Dave

+pablo+ wrote:Yea, I’m on it…bom-ba-tri-go-yo! The fun thing about cinquillo is that I’m counting it in one two three four five one two three four five and it fits effortlessly into two measures of 4/4. 10 beats matching up with an eight count. It’s like playing bembe guataca 6/8 with one hand, and playing the pulse (4/4 or 2/4) with the other. Like we once talked about: in every 6/8 is a 4/4. I may be a simpleton here , but this is something that just gets me going.
Moving on: with the quote “Rumba, there would never be 2/3 clave”
but Thomas Cruz Vol II presents guaguanco with a counter clave (2/3). Is this since it is not a true Rumba (three drummers, three parts)? I thought you could have either 3/2 or 2/3: the direction dictated by the singing.
Thanks for replying!

+pablo+ wrote:I thought you could have either 3/2 or 2/3: the direction dictated by the singing.

It was explained to me (whether correctly or not, I don't know) that in folkloric music, there is no 3/2 versus 2/3. There is simply the clave, which is (almost always): [x--x---x/--x-x---], and what changes is simply where the other rhythms and vocals line up with the clave. But no matter where the other rhythms fit into the clave, the clave is still the same.

A great example of a song that keeps changing where the vocals fit into the clave is "Avisale a la Vecina" by Clave y Guaguanco (god, how I love that song).

windhorse wrote:Just drawing it out as one bar, there's
Ix-xx-xx-I
and here's the other way to play cinquillo
Ixx-x-xx-I
Thus we'll play it twice in a measure, or twice in one clave.

Dave is this correct? Intuitively it looks to me like the cinquillo is 4 beats long the way
you have written it, the same length as a cycle of clave.

Here is 2 cycles of cinquillo versus 1 cycle of rumba clave. as you describe it.
both written for 1 measure, so they would be 16th notes. Seems like a lot to me.


Ix-xx-xx-x-xx-xx-I two cinquillos in one measure
Ix--x---x--x-x---I one clave in one measure

versus

Ix---x-x---x-x---Ione cinquillo in one measure
Ix--x---x--x-x---I one clave in one measure

I don't really know, I never have occasion to play cinquillo.

Yeah, that question is one I have as well.. Heavy weights? It's time someone else with greater knowledge to step in.
I drew it out as a bar, = 1/2 a measure, and the clave being the length of a measure.
I kind of go back to Tresillo for reference. There are two Tresillo's in a measure - at least the way I've counted it out in both Haitian and Cuban repertoire.
So, it would make sense that there would be two Cinquillo's in a measure.
I think You've got it right in your first notation with 16th notes. And the second one you drew is not cinquillo.
But, I admit that I'm not 100% sure.

bongosnotbombs wrote:

windhorse wrote:Dave is this correct? Intuitively it looks to me like the cinquillo is 4 beats long the way
you have written it, the same length as a cycle of clave.

Here is 2 cycles of cinquillo versus 1 cycle of rumba clave. as you describe it.
both written for 1 measure, so they would be 16th notes. Seems like a lot to me.


Ix-xx-xx-x-xx-xx-I two cinquillos in one measure
Ix--x---x--x-x---I one clave in one measure

versus

Ix---x-x---x-x---Ione cinquillo in one measure
Ix--x---x--x-x---I one clave in one measure

I don't really know, I never have occasion to play cinquillo.

So basically your saying you have 10 hits of cinquillo per five hits of clave?

Seems really busy.