Using clave to practice

[TONE74]

Whats going on everybody! I dont know anything about music but I know playing on clave is important so I figure practicing with clave in the background must be good. my question is are tumbaos always the lenght of the clave. I want to know this so that I know Im playing on time. Im starting to gain a little speed and sometimes I think Im playing too fast. Also can anyone recomend some good tumbaos for a beginner, something I can play with one drum I have 2 but I dont think Im ready for that yet. Thanks

[CongaTick]

Tone,

Welcome to the forum. The many threads generated by the forum pros will point you in the right direction

Here is a set of on line lessons from Pete Lockett I found very helpful. Not the only one, but a good sample of what's available.


http://www.petelockett.com/pete%20new%20pages/Conga%20lessons.html

[Toby]

Hi Tone,

the best way of practicing the clave when playing a rhythm doing it really really slowly. But, when you are doing this think about the placement of the notes that you are playing with each limb. Each note of the clave will coincide with a note that you are playing the hands. For instance:

The basic Tombao with 2-3 Clave

P F S F P F T T P F S F P F T T
C C C C C

P= Palm
F= Fingers
S= Slap
T= Tone

[windhorse]

My friend Dusty is planning to make a clave "machine". It sounds intriguing. He's taking a little music machine box - you know the metal drum things with little extensions that pluck metal pieces which make the sounds.. His idea is to get the little projections attached to strikers and have them hitting the clave as it turns..

We'll see if this ever comes about, but I thought the concept was clever.

[Raymond]

Clave, clave, clave....Us, Latinamericans, take it for granted because we are exposed to it since a little kid. If not as a musician it is like a dancer. So, for us is natural and believe it or not to be a good musician with music that involves clave your feel about the clave has to be "second nature."

Yes, the basic tumbao, has the same amount of bars as the clave. Two bars in a 4/4. So regardless if the arrangement has a 2/3 or 3/2 "basis", see other posts about the matter that has been discussed here, you will always be right. (Have to admit that 3/2 clave is uncomfortable to be and I sort of start with the "finger"/pam part when I start a tumbao when the clave is in 3/2 mode. Remember, notation wise, the conga tumbao, in downtempo and up tempo, is the same notation, pure double eighth notes that all that varies is what to use, finger, palm, slap, open, or the drums...tatatatatatata. Very generic but helps if you want to 'vary" because as long as you remember the double eighth notes or be aware of it you will be in clave"

Is not easy to be in "clave" when you dont' have it natural but have to try it until it becomes "second nature" (That is the reason non latin players make such a big deal of it because at the beginning it has to be hard. Like I said...I do not have the experience because I grew with it....Latinamericans have to have it for dancing and to be "socially acceptable" in some cases and is because we were exposed all the time. In regards to the term socially acceptable, I mean, when I grew "salsa" was the most popular musical genre and the "cool musical genre" so you have to know the clave...Even non musicians or non dancers who grew in my period have the clave in them).

My "complicated" 5 cents! (Lately my comments have become so "philosophical"...Perhaps I am taking this too seriously but I love to talk about percussion and look at all the things that affect it...not only the playing but the psychology and other aspects as well...Here I go...I got complicated again....Adios (Goodby)!)

Saludos!



Edited By Raymond on 1174251217

[TONE74]

Yeah I think Im Ok with clave as far as dancing and listening to music, I can grab two spoons and catch it right away but picking up an instrument is different specially as a beginner because Im worring about my technique how the sound is and since Im not comfortable with the movements yet it distracts when playing over music. With dancing I dont even think about it its like Raymond said. I guess its just a mater of getting comfortable with the instrument and dancing with my hands.
Had a little jam session with a friend over the house this weekend he is also learning, my wife and daughter locked themselves in the bedroom till it was over at least the rum was good!

[Raymond]

Tone74,

I have said this before..."relax into it." Definitively, not dominating the instrument yet and trying to make sure you are in clave is not easy. Is practice, practice, practice. Play along with records. Even record yourself while playing with records. (Believe me you will notice your mistakes). Play with other people. Watch others play.

I don't think you need this "loud" metronome type to keep with the clave. I think what you might have is a "tempo" or speed problem in keeping with the rhythm. (That is very common and is no big deal if you can control it but if you do it all the time it is a problem. If this problem is your problem, of course you will "fall out of clave)".

I hope this helps!

Saludos!

[korman]

Raymond, but isn't it in the end the pulse (the beat) that matters?

The dancers feet move with on the beat (not the clave), starting either on beat 1 as we europeans mostly do or on beat 2 as most latin americans do.
In both cases you can use clave to know where to start - 2 side starts on beat 2, and 3 side on beat 1. I usually listen to congas or bongo bell when dancing, though.

[Raymond]

Korman,

The dancing thing has gotten complicated. In my time, you danced in clave. In other words, you start your "move" when you feel the part of the clave in question, the 3 or the 2. Hard to explain in words, at least in regards to dancing.....

I have taken classess with the "new wave" of teachers and the 1 and 2 thing has been explained to me. In actuality, and how I understand it, is just an "accent" or emphasis thing you do in your move but you are still moved and have to keep up because you feel the clave. (Is a variation of beat within the bar of the clave in question that is also done by percussionists and is "comfortable" with the clave. Is just that...at least for me...). They are some dancers that I've seen and are out of clave but they look good because they are in sync dancing. Is odd but I guess if they do not have a problem...let them enjoy. Personally, I think dancing is an expression of joy and you should do it how you feel it. This wave of "hall dancing" in salsa has gotten things to complicated and is hurting the genre....The dancers do not care about the music, they care about dancing. Regular folks get intimidated, specially male who have the challenged of doing the "marvelous" turns of "hall dancers, that have shy away, specially the young kids, of the genre. Regaetton is easier and they have abandoned salsa....

Don't get me started with the dancing thing because although they helped in a moment, no longer it is holding true. They are hurting the genre by making this too complicated for dancing which is the basis of the "salsa genre"....

Saludos!

[Mano Teo]

You can get a nice "Conga Drumming Practice Partner CD" with son and rumba claves plus the 6/8 bell at slow, medium and fast tempos for $9.95 at

http://www.dancinghands.com/learn_c....#item36

(It's on the bottom of the page. Dancing Hands' books are good for learning too, I've used several.)

I use the CD myself, since it's cheaper than a drum machine; but when starting out I found a metronome easier to follow, until I'd gotten a better sense of time and a better grasp on the mechanics of playing. I think listening to lots of Latin music and getting a better feel for the clave helped too. Have fun!

[TONE74]

Sounds good guys, thanks for the help. Raymond I agree with you about the dancing. Salsa seems to be loosing a lot of its edge at least in my area. I dont know if the whole thing just got boring to people or what, maybe a lack of creativity or something. Ive seen a lot of dance floors clear maybe not completely but compared to the other music it seems like it. The thing that I notice is that they always play the same dam songs everywhere I go is the same playilist: Fruco " el preso " Oscar De Leon " lloraras lloraras " etc etc. They are nice songs but I got them coming out of my ears. I had a party at my house and started playing some different stuff and up comes a lady requesting guess what? (see songs above ) but nobody gets up to dance, so back to bachata reggueton merengue. You are right about the dancing too people act like its rocket science I cant dance that good but I dont care what people think its about me and my lady enjoying ourselves.

[Quinto Governor II]

Welcome TONE74,

If you haven't already ( with your question) you are now about to get your baptism into the world of latin music. Good luck my friend!:>) I've been studying percussion as best I can for 7 years now, primarily using videos and picking up as much as I can from the few experienced percussionists I know . I can't read music, so take what I say with a grain of salt. My uneducated opinion is that for popular music at least ( salsa and latin jazz ) the clave beat is simply superimposed over the music. Maybe another way to say it is that, the music comes first than the clave. If the music is written in 4/4 than the clave in forward or reverse direction maybe superimposed over it. One way may sound better than the other, or its possible neither may seem to sound compatible. Tito Puente has an instructional book and cd where on it he mentions this, although I added the part about neither possibly being compatible. I have never seen or heard how a music composition is written in clave. ( What are the rules and so-forth ). I heard an interview with Mongo Santamaria, where some musician in his band was asking about clave, and Mongo only response was, either you feel clave or you don't. Now that sound to me like understanding or playing in clave was not very important to Mongo, however; I sure what was important to Mongo was that the musician be able to play in time. I was thinking about how I am now just achieving the ability to play solo phrases in time, and how in the beginning my tendency was to play too early or too late from where the beat it should fall. My only explanation to how I got better, and I still have a long way to go, is that I listened to a heck of a lot of music. Keep practicing and listening and it will come. To the trained musicians among us, a thought came to me earlier, when thinking of the concept of clave. Would thinking or listening to the music in terms of 2 bars instead of one be of any benefit, If that concept has any practical reality to it. Just a thought. Hey Raymond I feel where your coming for far as the dance is concerned, maybe I'll have time later for a comment or 2.

[Quinto Governor II]

On the subject of latin dance, I've been dancing about as long as I've been drumming although I have some latino blood in me I'm new to the culture. I'm constantly learning more about the history and the culture of the music and the dancing. In my opinion salsa has been very much effected by commercialism. The influence of ballroom dancing has to many had a negative effect on the music and the dance, but many see it as a positive. I acknowledge that the skill of ballroom and lesson trained dancers is remarkable, however; for most people that type of commitment and effort is not what they are use to, just to enjoy something they have done all their life with little effort. If you can't do all the complex turns and have not taken the lessons you can be made to a feel like an outcast. I would like to be able to do that complex stuff, but I prefer to learn it on my own terms and at my own pace. I don't like the rigidity of the instructors. "You have to hold your arms this way" and "your hand must be placed here not here". The dancers I see on the floor that I like, break all the rules of the instructors. I'm rather reserved and laid back so to speak, latin music is one of the few things that take me out of that mode. Too much formal instruction kills the sense of freedom that it gives me.

[Raymond]

Well, this is a percussionist forum and if have gotten to dancing...A comment about dancing of what was said before and we go back to percussion....

"Sophisticated hall salsa dancing" helped the genre in its moment. It took it back to the roots of "salsa dura" or hard salsa. In the mid 90s, the record companies tried so hard to bring us the new romantic salsa pretty boy that people got saturated. (Nobody could dance to the romantic salsa or at least most of all). The dancers brought the traditional salsa bands with all the Congressess around the world, the old records, etc, etc. It was a good thing. It created interest in the reaosn of the genre..dancing. But now we are saturated of the same old bands, same old music, is too complicated to try to dance (it is not that you cannot dance but the ladies will not dance with you unless you are Mr. Great Dancer...is easy for them say since they do not have to memorize all those turns and steps...Remember the male is the lead). Anyway...we are back to ground zero with no development in new salsa or artists and impossible to go dancing for the fun of it....ENOUGH!

About the comment about clave or arrangement....I know a little bit to read percussion music and I am not a scholar. My understanding is that the clave in arrangments is used as a guide and to provide the right "accents" either in the notes played or singing. That's it. Believe me if the emphasis is in the wrong place, it will feel out of clave. Some people have felt the clave thing as something that restricts and I sort of agree. New Cuban music "plays" with the clave in giving emphasis or accents out of the clave in the choruses and/or jumping the order of the bar by going 3/2 bar, 2/3 bar and then going with another 2/3 bar. (By the way, it was done back in the Golden era of salsa too).

So the clave has a reason. It feels ackward when you are playing or singing out of clave. It should not be big deal but there is the option of "placing" everything in the accent of the clave and it sounds nicer...That is how it goes.... Marc Anthony dare to say that to sing salsa you did not need clave. It was considered sacrilegious when he said that and almost killed his career with the salsa folks. He no longer says that because now he knows you have to have that clave to sound good

Saludos!.

[bongo]

I would like to add that the book 'Salsa' by Charley Gerard and Marty Sheller was helpful in explaining the nuance of clave. The book includes notation on many Latin rhythms, talks of 'the clave sensibility', and gives examples of bad cruzado parts as opposed to phases that fit the clave.

I know that in my culture (United States) that rock & roll is rooted deep. We grew up dancing to it..... yet it amazes me how hard actually playing a rock beat is for some people, even rock & rollers. This is a skill that transends culture, and I will bet it's the same way with clave.... most people, unless they are very fortunate, have to work at it, no matter where they are from.

For me, I see clave, visualize a motion, it sways one way and then the next, the phrase ends leaning one way, then the next a mirrored image, leans the other way. Hard to explain, but you will see the same motion in the hips of a salsa singer.

One last thing, I have learned to play clave with my left foot. It really adds a lot to my conga parts. It is hard to do, but worth the effort.