Using clave to practice

[franc]

mi pana raymond,
hope you are doing great. how about when you doing a solo?? please tell me how you think about the clave?? gracias, un amigo, y ache!! ??? franc

[JohnnyConga]

R U KIDDING ME....MONGO WAS KING CLAVE AND IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT AS IT SHOULD BE TO ANYONE WHO PLAYS THE DRUM....AS FAR AS THE WHOLE "SALSA" SCENE....IT WOULD TAKE ANOTHER MIGRATION OF pUERTO rICANS OR CUBANS TO REVIVE IT......THE NEW GENERATIONS ARE NOT INTO "MOM AND POPS" MUSIC, THEY ARE NOW LISTENING TO REGGAETON...WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REAGGAE OR WHATER A TON IS...IT'S JUST THE SOUND OF TODAY FROM THE STREETS OF PR AND NEW YORK...SO SALSA UMMM.....WHERE DID IT ALL GO?......"JC" JOHNNY CONGA... ???

[CongaTick]

[my question is are tumbaos always the lenght of the clave. I want to know this so that I know Im playing on time. Im starting to gain a little speed and sometimes I think Im playing too fast. QUOTE]

Interesting how the original thread topic gave vent to a lot of venting :laugh:

[TONE74]

Ha Ha, que lio. Well Ive been practicing, not much but when I get the chance (kids, work, you know the deal). I started playing with slower music and that made a big difference now instead of being all over the place it feels like Im part of the band and I think my time is pretty good at this speed. The slaps are getting better too I was hitting some nice ones last night for the first time its a good feeling but I know I got a long way to go. I ordered the Tomasito dvd as my schooling I saw a lot of good reviews on it so I went with it. Peace

[Raymond]

Franc,

In my simple manner to explain the reason why the clave, is the same for soloing.

Your phrases or beats have to be in harmony with the accents of the clave. Nobody says that you cannot do something out of clave. Yes you can and sometimes you could do it but eventually you have to go back to the clave. Again, is just a matter in playing in accordance with the emphasis of the clave.

Somebody, in a galaxy far away and long time ago, decided what the beats were going to be in the percussion instruments in the "son" influenced rhythms and it was done with the "emphasis" of the clave in mind. That is what we have now and nobody has been able do create something different. Yes, variations and playing with it, but since the variations in clave are just two, somehow somebody is going to be in a "clave" and another is going to be in the other side of the clave. When you have the clashes of the side of the clave, it feels just plain ackward and the nature is to "align" with the everybody else because it will throw you off. I guess is the natural dynamic that is no way to break it that "son" related rhythms must have

Don't know how to explalin it but the "son" influenced rhythms, mambo, salsa, latin jazz, etc. that clave is very important. It just feels ackward and unplayable when you are out of clave. You could say is a guide and a base that must be followed or at least be used.

The clave is very simple, although hard for some to be aware of, eventually if you play enough and pay attention enough, it will be in your gut feeling all the time. (What you use as a guide to follow the clave is any "bass" in what you playing, either bass or piano or a conga in the case of rumba type music. If you "feel" that your playing will go that way....)

I have a good story to tell about the clave and is public.....Do you remember ORQUESTA DE LA LUZ????? That was a Japanese salsa band that was a novelty and they did not sound bad live. The band when it recorded had one guy practically doing all the percussion, Carlos Kanno, who was the guy who created the band. As far as I know the guy was a good percussionist. But anyway....they were playing in Calle Ocho festival in Miami and all of the sudden, the bongo player, playing the bongo bell fell out of clave....It was the most ackward feeling in the world. Everybody noticed it but the bongo player. The public started looking at each other. Everybody on stage tried to get back but not everybody "fell in the clave" with the bongo player kept on playing that cowbell..po, po, po. The leader of the band, stopped everybody but the bongo player and then they all "accomodated" themselves to the bell...then everybody was on clave again. The singers stopped when this happened that the bongo bell was out because it fell ackward...but like I said....everybody "accomodated" to the bongo player and his cowbell... This is the most embarrasing moment I've seen a band trying to accomodate to the clave. I've seen one guy falling out of it...but that guy tends to get back...In this case it was hard to see everybody trying but I guess these Japanese guys did not have the instinct to it and everybody had to stop..

I hope you like the story as a good example and part of what we are trying to do...I guess this is something hard to explain but easy to recognize.

Saludos!

[JohnnyConga]

Congatick playing "on time" and playing "in clave" is 2 different things....u either have "time" or u don't, if u don't have "natural timing" then it is to be acquired using a metronome or some type of foot bell,or a click trak of some kind...learn to play tumbao in all clave..2/3 3/2 and 3/2 Rumba clave....."JC" Johnny Conga...

[Raymond]

Regarding JC's comments....yes...Unless something big happens salsa is just falling out and it will become "your mom and dad's music"... And once our generation, who is in the late 30s, 40s and 50s, will not be able to sponsor it because of our age, it will be likely gone as a popular genre, just like plena, bomba, boleros are....

Salsa is no longer appealing to the kids because it lacks addressing the issues they like....fun and "their stories". Back in the 60s and 70s that was the case.

I guess you could say that "commercialism" and the "tradition and standards" that must be followed are killing it The tradition is a big one....the new generations are not disciplined enough to follow a music that has a specific manner to dance it and to make things worst is based in something that cannot be broken that is the clave. Too much of a hassle!

Then, commercialism affect it.....salsa did not evolution like it was done in Cuba...personally, what we call Timba was the obvious evolution of salsa...fusion with some other genres, dance freely, still with fresh lyrics appealing to the youth and is just plain fun....What salsa did???? They went the "romantic" thing.... Yes, a new public came into it...women. Then they tried to market salsa as balladists. Forget the group! ....Then some great sales and record companies started trying any "frustrated balladist" into the scene, some got hits, some did not...They "scared" the traditional salsero...Yes they had a new public but is a public not loyal to the genre.... Part of that public has gone...bachata..that is now the preferrable romantic genere...

The saturation of "pretty boy salsa singers" was such that record sales went down in the late 90s...(I guess this went too far...record companies no longer were going to be recording everybody).....Then came the "Hall dancers"......Yes, they helped revive the "hard salsa" from the 70s...since they listened to old records...all the old bands started getting gigs again....In Puerto Rico, "El Dia Nacional de la Salsa" (Salsa's National Day) started to become bigger and we sort of sponsor the thing because we were "thirsty" of the "hard salsa"..... It was cheap and fun to go to El Dia Nacional de la Salsa but is now expensive, a hassle and they are running out of "revival" of old bands.....Going back to the hall dancers.....they did good but at the end they scared people away....Now...you cannot go to a salsa place and the "regular guy" feels intimidated because now he has to be the greatest dancer. Women feel the same...Is just ridicilous what you see now....Two walls in the middle of the dance floor....One of guys....and another of women...with dancers in the middle doing all sorts of great and overemphazied dancing...The kids do not go for that...too complicated. Some "old guys", said well...lets get some dancing clasess, even though he/she knows how to dance, just to be in the "picture" of what is going on...but this is a minority and not everybody.

Then you have the "big salsa" sellers that have kept the romantic feeling because of sales...Yes...some dare to get "agressive" to try to capture the hard salsa fans but they have not done enough and worst....they are now recording more pop music than salsa....They are like "balladists", they charge too much money, they don't play as often as they used to, all going to them and not to the musicians. (Look at Gilberto Santarosa...what a joke....he said he did not want to become a "cantante de cartel" but he has become one....If somebody has the force to try to change this is him but all he cares is about sales....Is moving into another direction I guess for his benefit but the genre that put him in the map is goig down).

So what we have know.....The old bands playing the same stuff. Only a few of the old bands playing, then people get "saturated" of the same combinations in dances and public appearances...The biggest salsa radio station is just playing old songs...nothing new..plus we have an attitude of not accepting anything new...it is hard to go dancing just for the fun of it...not enough new recordings to get the kids interested...a dead Puerto Rico and New York salsa scene with just plain "hall dancers" that do not care anything about the genre and all they care is to dance...So we have a dead genre that is going to get worst because they public and players that care about the genre are not getting any younger...Plus the people that could help us are not doing anything...

This might not be true in Colombia or Venezuela or Panama but is true in New York and Puerto Rico the places salsa was considered the most important thing. I know some Colombians and Venezuelans cannot understand this...But that is how it goes...

That is $1.50 of what is going on...is too bad!

Saludos

[Raymond]

Like JC says, and I mentioned it at the beginning of the thread, one thing in playing in the right speed and another is playing in clave. What happens is that if you do not how the first one, the right speed, it will definitively, you will have problems with the clave.

That is somebody who wants to play on clave has to be aware of because you might play on clave but is your clave because of the speed you are playing that makes you fall out of the clave everybody else is playing and is something that needs to be identifed. Because believe me, out in the pro playing arena, some people cannot play with a group because they cannot keep with everybody in the "pocket" because they play too fast or too slow...Is a problem if you don't master your speed and the sense of speed or tempo of the whole group or ensemble you are playing with!

Saludos!

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Folks,
I’d like to respond to a few of the statements made so far on this subject.

>>Quinto Governor II: “I heard an interview with Mongo Santamaria, where some musician in his band was asking about clave, and Mongo only response was, either you feel clave or you don't.”

It’s hard for us to imagine what it would have been like to grow up hearing rumba in a Cuban barrio during the mid-20th Century, as Mongo did. Drummers from that time didn’t “learn clave” in the same way we did. The only experience I’ve had that can even come close to this is perhaps my knowledge of Beatles melodies and lyrics. I didn’t have to “study” the Beatles’ music in order to “learn” it. I was around it so much (radio, records) in the 60’s that I “learned” it through osmosis.

While learning through the aural tradition as Mongo and other Cubans have done is the best way, it certainly is not the only way. It’s possible to witness the flip side of this when one considers the struggles Cuban musicians have had in trying to learn to play jazz with the proper emphasis. As we all know though, there are many outstanding Cuban jazz musicians and many outstanding non-Cuban congueros.

>>Raymond: “So the clave has a reason. It feels ackward when you are playing or singing out of clave. It should not be big deal but there is the option of "placing" everything in the accent of the clave and it sounds nicer.”

Depending on the genre involved, there are requisite con-clave (with-clave) parts and contra-clave (not with-clave) parts within an ensemble arrangement. In other words, not all the parts reinforce the strokes of clave (if that’s what you meant to say). The problem arises when the requisite con-clave parts are in a cruzado (reversed and incorrect) position. Some rhythmic figures have some latitude, but it’s not a case of “anything goes”. It takes time to learn these subtleties and in fact, many of them are subjective judgment calls.

>>Raymond: “New Cuban music "plays" with the clave in giving emphasis or accents out of the clave in the choruses and/or jumping the order of the bar by going 3/2 bar, 2/3 bar and then going with another 2/3 bar. (By the way, it was done back in the Golden era of salsa too).”

Yes, timba takes a lot of liberties with clave, far more than were done back in the Golden era of salsa. In fact, there are particular expressions of “clave license” found in timba that I don’t believe have been done before. This phenomena is controversial and has caused somewhat of a “clave schism” in our music.

>>Franc: “how about when you doing a solo?? please tell me how you think about the clave?”

Of course, eventually you want to have your sense of clave so internalized that you don’t have to “think” about it any longer, you just feel it. But that takes time. There’s a lot of freedom in soloing against a montuno as opposed to playing a lead drum part for a traditional folkloric rhythm. In the case of the latter, one is expected to quote particular phrases and improvise within more defined parameters. My suggestion is to first learn a relatively simple folkloric lead drum vocabulary, like bembe caja (mid-20th Century style). The caja phrases have a specific relation to clave. Next learn rumba quinto and again, listen to sources from the mid-20th Century, like early Munequitos, Mongo and Los Papines. Learn the quinto vocabulary in relation to clave. Finally, study the solos of the early band congueros: Mongo, Tata, etc., and of course, make sure you know how those licks relate to clave. Basically, listen to the older, slower and simpler solos to understand what’s going on.

>>Quinto Governor II: “My uneducated opinion is that for popular music at least ( salsa and latin jazz ) the clave beat is simply superimposed over the music. Maybe another way to say it is that, the music comes first than the clave”

In my opinion, good popular music is “organically” structured in clave, just like folkloric music.

-David

[zwar]

ho

clave is a simplification of rythm, useful, but comparable to a skeleton. it is the flesh and blood that makes the thing a whole. its not the same thing playing mozambique or songo, allthough clave is the same. there is a lot more things forming the character of a music.
being "in clave" is for me a somehow simple expression for "being in that special kind of rhythm/music".
of course it is necessary, never to loose track of where you are, no matter how complex your solos are.
as well as never to forget about the character and spirit of the music you play.
i often enough hear people play just "something" into a music, rhythmically correct, but weakening the spirit and groove of the song.
i am no friend of mixing everything together, and declare it modern and freedom. it leads us to just making things sound all the same.
clave alone will not do the trick.
sure, if someone is not an expert for cuban/latin music, thats me.
but i am not very happy about clave given such importance. clave is not enough.

my humble opinion

zwar

[Raymond]

For bad or worst, latin rhythms based in the Cuban son, are played with the clave as a basis. Yes, they are other genres who do not need the clave to play. (The problem with the clave is that everybody has to be in the same clave, at least for most of the tune or arrangement....Somo people hate that constraint.....)

The clave thing is what have made latin rhythms so interesting to some people and also have made other frustrated and do not want to deal with it.

Be aware, if you play an "Afro-Cuban" instrument and you follow regular basic patterns, basic tumbao, martillo, cascara, etc, you are in clave. Although, is your own clave within the tune you are playing. The problem is when you play "son" based rythms that everybody hast to be playing the patterns that correspond to the right side of the clave that the "arrangement" or tune demands. Is how it goes....

Saludos!

[GuruPimpi]

Guys!

Your posts here got me intrigued and I did something which I was postponing for a long time... I started and learned how to play 3-2 clave on a foot pedal while playing tumbao.

Next time rumba clave...

Great,

Primoz

[franc]

raymond,
i have problem with speed and the clave, mostly at first especially when i don't know the song. in other hand since i can read music and further practice, eventually i get the right speed. my solo i used the piano and bass patterns, also using the pulse where the clave falls. i play bongos in my school orquestra. classic salsa. also i play bongo, conga and small percussion inst. in the band that is more classic, international and american music . like rock, funk and so on. gracias, raymond, por tu interes, my bless , success and ache. franc ???

[korman]

Raymond, well here in Latvia, believe it or not, salsa was introduced just some five years ago and it was ballroom dancing trainers who did it. I guess they were looking for something to help their business, and they found it. If you start with zero experience, I guess it takes about a year to look reasonably good when dancing salsa.
So I guess everyone here is a "hall dancer", but many of those people are getting interested in history of the genre and broadening their horizons. So this phenomenon may be responsible for bringing salsa to places it was never popular or even heard of before.
I myself do not go to salsa courses anymore, I found percussion and like it much better:)





David, where is it possible to find something more about bembe caja? Is there a book or video on it?



Edited By korman on 1174973658

[franc]

davidpenalosa,
interesting what you have mentioned. my answer to you on how i do my solos, by mistake i mentioned it to raymond. i use my foot to keep time and the clave feel inside of the four foot tap. within i will distributed my riffs or solos. i do make lot of mistakes, when beginning a new song, but like i mentioned. it don't take me long, since i read to help me learn the song and internalized it. ache and mucho blessing to all!!! franc ???