Humidity and tuning

[109-1176549166]

Just a thought:

Is it possible that constant EVEN tension could actually help to keep a drum in round? Many woods have a tendency to move/warp/crack over the years, or to try to get back to their original shape if steambent - maybe this would help lock down the wood.

But even if that's the case, what's the effect of prolonged tension on the skin? mjtuazon's rubber band theory sounds good, but can we get some documentation to back it up?

Taikonoatama,

You ask, "Is it possible that constant EVEN tension could actually help to keep a drum in round?" My answer: Of course, it could! But only if you include the possibility that the diameter of the drum's mouth can also get smaller! :laugh: :;): Sorry, but I just couldn't help being facetious! ???

Fortunately for me, I probably won't have to worry about the staves of my Islas having to move back to their original shape 'cause the staves are carved rather than steambent. This is just one of the many selling points of the Islas that led me to swing in favor of buying them.

But, admittedly, that's not really answering your question. My serious answer is this: I'm no wood expert and I haven't had enough personal experience or heard firsthand the experience(s) of others to give a really authoritative answer. Most of the back and forth retorts are probably based more on logical theorizing (or attempts thereto) anyway rather than hard scientific data.

And going back, I see the debate regarding the effect on drums by humidity and tuning to involve the following scenarios: (1) no detuning, (2) partial detuning and (3) complete detuning.

If your theory is right, then even partial detuning (alternative #2) would be beneficial 'cause there'll still be some healthy tension (assuming that it's even) remaining on the skin.

The only point of contention left, therefore, is to determine whether complete detuning (alternative #3) is actually bad for drums and cause steambent wood to get back to their original shape in the absence of any tension.

Based on these narrower parameters, then I'm going back to my original contention/theory and answer this in the negative: No tension is better for the life of the drum than sustained tension.

And as for the life of the skin, based on my "rubber band theory" and buttressed by my personal experience with the original skins on the Toca fiberglass congas (which skins were left tuned for years) that I inherited from a bandmate from another band, I would argue even more in favor of detuning (whether partial or complete).

In fact, I have no alternative but to believe that detuning can only be beneficial to the drum after personally witnessing the negative consequence of the opposite.



Edited By mjtuazon on 1184730170

[bongo]

And as for the life of the skin, based on my "rubber band theory" and buttressed by my personal experience with the original skins on the Toca fiberglass congas (which skins were left tuned for years) that I inherited from a bandmate from another band, I would argue even more in favor of detuning (whether partial or complete).

In fact, I have no alternative but to believe that detuning can only be beneficial to the drum after personally witnessing the negative consequence of the opposite.

Since you inherited these drums, how do you know what they sounded like in the first place?

Maybe you just got a pair of old drums that sounded bad.... it happens.

[yambu321]

HEY GUYS THERE'S NOW A PHOTO OF ME AT MY CONGA PLACE.
LOOK AT THE LIST OF MEMBERS AND CLICK OM EL COQUI. THEN SCROLL DOWN AND YOU'LL SEE MY PHOTO. CLICK ON THE PHOTO IN ORDER TO SEE IT FULL SIZE. NOT MUCH, BUT SOMETHING ANYWAY

[109-1176549166]

Since you inherited these drums, how do you know what they sounded like in the first place?

Maybe you just got a pair of old drums that sounded bad.... it happens.

Nothing personal, but I hope we're not starting to get nitpicky here. :;):

Anything's possible, but the original owner himself told me that the skins had become dead--from being stretched for too long. I asked him if he ever detuned them and he said no. He said that he was too busy with much more important things, like making money, as a businessman. (He happens to drive a fairly current Porsche 911 Turbo.)

I also asked him if the skins had always sounded dead and he also said no. He said that, in fact, the skins sounded very much alive and crisp when he first got them. He just wasn't interested in replacing the skins and was lazy about it. This is probably why my friend got tired of his congas and left them with me. The skins are water buffalo skins, BTW.



Edited By mjtuazon on 1184740174

[109-1176549166]

Hey Charlie,

I checked out your picture and, man, you look good! You look even more harmless than I thought! :laugh:

I also read your very interesting biodata.

It's always good to finally attach a face to the name and knowing more about you. Thanks for sharing, Bro!

All the best,

[yambu321]

THANKS MANNY, ALWAYS BRO!!!!

[Congadelica]

:cool: Over the past week ive been experimenting a little . I have been de tuning / and leaving tuned for 4 day period . The humidity has been pretty consistent here in the UK and temps the same . What I have noticed is that firstly my tubs aint gone out of round but on the 2 days I de tuned my conga and quinto then re tuned over the said 2 day trail the the drums seem to tune up much better .
I have tuned down by 2 1/4 turns on the conga and 2 half turns quinto , to effect that they sounded much softer and warmer . the other 2 days I left them fully tuned and lo and behold they sounded flat and less resonant .
Conclusion guys is I will de tune in future , Thanks for all the input on this topic Im learning all the time here and Im sure others are learning as we go along .

Some very interesting coments , some a little scientific but none the less very informative

Thanks again

Marco

[109-1176549166]

but on the 2 days I de tuned my conga and quinto then re tuned over the said 2 day trail the the drums seem to tune up much better .
I have tuned down by 2 1/4 turns on the conga and 2 half turns quinto , to effect that they sounded much softer and warmer . the other 2 days I left them fully tuned and lo and behold they sounded flat and less resonant .
...Thanks for all the input on this topic Im learning all the time here and Im sure others are learning as we go along .

Marco,

You're more than welcome!

This is exactly part of the point I've been trying to make based on what I've heard from everyone who's advised me to detune, especially Charlie (Yambu321) and Mario Punchard of Isla Percussion.

When you allow the skin (especially animal skin) to REST by detuning, you not only extend the life of the skin, you also give your drum the added benefit of relieving the stress on the shell, rim, tuning rods and plates. And when you tune them back again, you get the added benefit of the skin sounding more crisp and more alive!

But, if you keep the skin stretched for a long period of time, not only are you also keeping the shell, rim, tuning rods and plates under stress, you're also letting the skin adapt or get used to its stretched position. Over time, the skin will probably sound dead-er.

Again, we're going back to the "rubber band" analogy. Depending on the kind of rubber (natural or synthetic) it's made from, if you keep it stretched for an extended period of time, it'll lose some of its elasticity. But, if you often relieve its stress and allow it to rest after stretching it, then there's much more likelihood that it'll maintain its original elasticity and for a longer period of time, too. It just sounds common-sensical.

BTW, I should be the one thanking you first for sharing your testimonial on your firsthand experience regarding the advantage(s) of detuning your drum!



Edited By mjtuazon on 1184759900

[bongosnotbombs]

Edit: I somehow missed bongosnotbombs' last post. Still, one could ask: Would the deformation be neutralized by EVEN tension?

Most woods are capable of withstanding large amounts of compression and tension. It is sustained loads over time that usually result in permanent deformation.

Even tension would not help the drum from "going out of round", as the wood accumulates moisture from humidity or expands due to heat, it will move in an outward direction.
This cause splits as the movement overcomes the strength of the glue. I assume most glues used tend to be more on the stiff and brittle side instead of the pliable flexible type.

If I am correct, drums go "out of round" due to inward pressure, probably from the skin itself? I am assuming the main cause of this would be a very tight skin exerting changing forces on the drum due to climate.

The tension of the skin on the staves cause them to compress against each other. It is this combination of forces, which eventually equal zero, that keeps the components from moving. When one of the forces is greater than the other movement occurs.

I am sure the cause of this would typically be the strength of the glue and the surface strength of the stave. Another component would be the cell structure of the wood itself and its ability to withstand compression.

Well maybe even tension would prevent the going out of round simply because it's even but not because of tension.



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1184775026

[bongosnotbombs]

I may have been a little off in my observations before, I just read an excellent article gleaned from a link on the old Sol percussion website...

it has this to say
Continuing to tune an old head will eventually impact the shell. When tension on the tuning systems is uneven, the side plates that secure the tension rods to the shell begin to pull up, which can damage the shell material. "The first thing it does is create a crack right where the bolt goes through the shell," Moghaddam says. "On a fiberglass drum, it starts pulling the top of the side plate in toward the body and creates a little dent at the top of the plate." The net result is that you end up with and egg-shaped drum that can't be tuned, even after installing a new head.

very interesting, here is a link to the rest of the article

http://www.soldrums.com/drummag3.html

there is really a lot of cool information on the Sol site, and Akbar has got to be a respected source. I sure wish he was still in SF making Sol instead of in LA making Gon Bops.

[109-1176549166]

Bongosnotbomb,

Thanks for referring us to Akbar Moghaddam's old "Sol Percussion" website. I've visited this website often before, but I didn't remember this article. This article is entitled "Drum Care" and authored by Andy Doershuck.

Brothers/Sisters,

The author also writes,

"Animal skin conga heads are sensitive to changes in temperature - heat tightens the head and cold loosens it. Heads on small congas, such as quintos, are particularly affected by heat. So be sure to loosen the tension on the drumhead before you throw your quinto into the trunk of your car on a hot day. In fact, it's a good idea to loosen the head tension on smaller congas when they aren't being played."

Argument for partial detuning?

Furthermore, he writes, "A conga is a machine that works on the principle of tension, therefore it's most subject to damage wherever tension is applied to the shell."

Argument for complete detuning?

You decide.

[bongosnotbombs]

Yeah Manny, it's an excellent article.

On my wood drums I detune my macho by 2 turns and the hembra by 1turn. I feel thats sufficient. I don't detune my fiberglass drums.

It's a lot of effort to tune and detune all the way. I'm too lazy for that, I wanna play!

[109-1176549166]

Bongosnotbomb,

With my Toca fiberglass practice congas with Remo Fiberskyn heads, I only partially detune. I'm not as concerned about the shell as I am with my canoe wood Islas.

Your partial detuning is fine by me. Mario Punchard seems to belong to that school also. I figure that some detuning is better than nothing.

Our colleague, Charlie, belongs to the school of complete detuning. Lately, he's convinced me to back to that school.

So, 2 conclusions I can deduce from Andy Doershuck's article is: (1) If you want to help prolong the life of the skin, detune partially, and (2) if you want to help prolong the life of both the skin and the shell, detune completely.

So far, I still have the enthusiasm and the energy to detune my drums completely. But, only God knows if I can keep this up in the future. :;):



Edited By mjtuazon on 1184830354

[bongosnotbombs]

Manny,
You know if I had a set of Isla's like you I'd probably feel the same way!

.......then again there are some great sounding vintage drums that never get detuned and are fine.

[109-1176549166]

Manny,
You know if I had a set of Isla's like you I'd probably feel the same way!

.......then again there are some great sounding vintage drums that never get detuned and are fine.

Bongosnotbombs,

Thanks for your kind words!

Re: "there are some great sounding vintage drums that never get detuned and are fine", I never discounted this possibility or even fact. It's just that I, personally, have taken the position (maybe just for now) that I'd rather be safe than sorry.

All the best, Bro!



Edited By mjtuazon on 1184873564