Guarapachangueo

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Postby JayMacho » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:09 am

Thanks Jorge for explaining what I was trying to say.

David, son clave in rumba is only played with yambu. Where in the traditional style of yambu the salidor tone is played on the third beat. Rumba clave is different from son clave in that the third stroke is adapted to the first hit of the segunda/3-2/tres golpe. Thus the terms 3-2 and tres golpe. Also remember that original clave was rumba clave which came over from Nigeria. Son clave evolved from the Spanish roots of afro cuban music. (But thats another topic...)

So when talking about the ponche/bass/bombo. Its always played on the second hit of the clave. If you listen to old school Muñequitos de Matanzas, Gregorio always hit the bass tone and he usually based all his riffs around that bass tone. So when I was talking about playing guarapachangueo on tumbadora I was talking about hitting this stroke alone and only hitting the normal tones occasionally. Also like Jorge explained it can be played on the other side of the clave as well which would be the 4th stroke of the clave, only that the other side of the clave is often used to do all the talking/riffs. So that gets substitued by whatever riffs are being played.

To understand it more you have to listen to it. Jorge gave some excellent references. Rapsodia Rumbera is pretty hard to come by but my boy sells excellent copies of it on ebay, his handle is silverspurr53. As for the Rumberos de Cuba you can get their new album "Habana de Mi Corazon" on Descarga.com or their first album is on itunes. Its called "Donde Andabo tu Acereko?". I strongly recommend the latter album. Rumberos de Cuba also made a dvd call Rumbon Tropical. You can find that basically anywhere. Amazon has a nicedeal on a double pack with this dvd and another one called Rumbambeo which is really good.

Now as for the Chinitos stlye of guarapachangueo understand that they only use two drummers not three. So there is one guy playing quinto and one guy usually playing a cajon with a conga who is basically playing tres golpe. Now Jorge mentioned that when playing tres golpe the ponche is also hit like when playing tumbador but the difference in Chinitos style of playing is that they hit the ponche on the first stroke of the clave not the second and from there is where all the talking and riffing comes from. Its very complicated to understand especially with all the different variations so again I stress to listen.

You can catch the Chinitos on youtube. Also for a better explanation of this stlye and for more references check out esquinarumbera.blogspot.com.

I really hope this has been helpful. Im not really an expert on guarapachangueo, I got all this by listening so if Im wrong about something I am sorry. I just really want to help a little.

Peace,
JAY
La Llave es la Clave!
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Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:27 am

Hi Jay,
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I was really just trying to pin down your definition of the term “ponche”.

I was introduced to guarapachangeo by members of the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional in the late ‘80’s. Thanks for all those references though. I don’t have all of them and I always appreciate getting turned onto “new” material. That is definitely helpful.

May I recommend another guarapachangeo to you? – It’s from “Drum Jam” (Grupo Exploracion), featuring Miguel Bernal, Mike Spiro, Harold Muñiz and the late Chichito Cepeda. It’s also available on itunes, but as I just discovered to my horror, it’s listed as “cuarapachangeo”, an obvious typo error. Anyway, I produced the CD, which consists of just percussion. I intentionally did not have singing so that the drum melody would be dominant.

In regards to your statement: “the ponche/bass/bombo. Its always played on the second hit of the clave.” It seems that you are calling both bombo and ponche the second stroke of clave. I have never heard the term ponche used that way before. Do you remember your source for that usage?

I’ve only heard the second stroke called bombo. I defined ponche in my previous post. I believe that the term bombo as a specific pulse originates from the conga de comparsa, where the bombo drum’s main emphasis is that pulse. In time, the term has come to mean that important accent as it occurs in other genres as well.

I believe that the term ponche comes from popular music like salsa, where that pulse is an important accent in unison breaks. Unlike bombo, I think the term ponche originated in popular music rather than in folkloric music.

I have to take issue with your statement “…remember that original clave was rumba clave which came over from Nigeria. Son clave evolved from the Spanish roots of afro cuban music”. You say that it’s another topic, but this or similar statements have been repeated a lot over the years, so I’d like to address that topic at this time.

What we call “son clave” and “rumba clave” both exist in Africa. That’s where they both came from. Son clave did not “evolve from Spanish roots”.

Since the Revolution, rumba clave has gradually replaced son clave as the most common guide pattern in Cuba.
-David
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Postby Tonio » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:37 pm

Not to pick sides or anything, but I would agree with the ponche/bombo nomenclature to have a differnet meaning, at least in my experience.
Bombo seems to be more of an accent stroke by a certain instrument(drum), and ponche is a "riff" per se, to initiate or resulting movement in a modern genre-e.g. Salsa-is my understanding.

BTW David, what capacity of production are you involved in? If willing, could we take this subject off line? I have a few things I would like to pick your brain if I may.

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Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:56 pm

Tonio,
If I understand you correctly, you agree with me. In her book “The Salsa Guidebook”, Rebeca Mauleon defined the term “ponche” to include both the main accent of the common break and that specific pulse as it is used in any other context as well. In the case of the second meaning, you could say that the open tone of the basic tumba part in guaguanco is ponche. I believe that the first definition, the more specific one you cited, is the original meaning.

I have served in the role of Executive Producer for most of the releases by Bembe Records. That means that I was responsible for taking a recording (usually a mixed master on a disc) and making it into a product, basically, the CD in its case that you buy in a record store. I wrote the liner notes for Musica Yoruba, Bata Ketu, ¡Machetazo! and other Cds. On Drum Jam I was the Producer; it was my musical vision from beginning to end. I directed the project. Feel free to contact me privately.
-David




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Postby JayMacho » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:58 am

Hi David,

I hope this isn't coming out to seem like a dispute, Im sorry if it is because I do know myself to not have much tact when talking. I was referring ponche to the manner in which the tone is played. Meaning your whole hand in the middle of the drum. If this still doesn't make sense maybe its just a new york term... I am curious to know what you guys call it...

But to make clear what I was originally saying is that I personally like the style of guarapachangueo where the tumbador plays off the 2 of the clave where in regular rumbas the bass tone would go.

As for the clave thing, perhaps the information I received was wrong. Maybe it was 2-3 clave that the Spanish poets came up with. Anywayz, thanks for the correction...

Like I said, Im no expert I just go by the things I pick up here and there. I am young and have a long ways to go and unfortunately I didn't grow up in Cuba...

Peace,
JAY
La Llave es la Clave!
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Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:29 am

Hi Jay,
Thanks for your gracious response. I’m constantly trying to learn myself, so no need to apologize. Many times I chime in to “correct” someone and I end up learning something new myself.

I’ve always just called that a “bass”. Interesting that some NY players call it “ponche”. In this music there’s a fascinating mixture of street slang, Cuban musical terms and standard musical terms in the English language. A great deal of the latter is used incorrectly, the Cubans seem to change the meaning of their terms about once every decade and slang is..well, slang.

I understand what you are saying about hitting a tone on the second stroke of clave.

The 3-2 and 2-3 terminology and concept refers to the two possible ways a chord progression may be juxtaposed to clave. It doesn’t apply to rumba and other folkloric genres. (I never resist an opportunity to say that) :)
-David




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Re: Guarapachangueo

Postby vasikgreif » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:03 pm

Bringing old thread back to live, with this video (thanks David for pointing me to this vid):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8n3GRB1 ... r_embedded
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Re:

Postby pcastag » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:08 pm

davidpenalosa wrote:Hi Jay,
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I was really just trying to pin down your definition of the term “ponche”.

I was introduced to guarapachangeo by members of the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional in the late ‘80’s. Thanks for all those references though. I don’t have all of them and I always appreciate getting turned onto “new” material. That is definitely helpful.

May I recommend another guarapachangeo to you? – It’s from “Drum Jam” (Grupo Exploracion), featuring Miguel Bernal, Mike Spiro, Harold Muñiz and the late Chichito Cepeda. It’s also available on itunes, but as I just discovered to my horror, it’s listed as “cuarapachangeo”, an obvious typo error. Anyway, I produced the CD, which consists of just percussion. I intentionally did not have singing so that the drum melody would be dominant.

In regards to your statement: “the ponche/bass/bombo. Its always played on the second hit of the clave.” It seems that you are calling both bombo and ponche the second stroke of clave. I have never heard the term ponche used that way before. Do you remember your source for that usage?

I’ve only heard the second stroke called bombo. I defined ponche in my previous post. I believe that the term bombo as a specific pulse originates from the conga de comparsa, where the bombo drum’s main emphasis is that pulse. In time, the term has come to mean that important accent as it occurs in other genres as well.

I believe that the term ponche comes from popular music like salsa, where that pulse is an important accent in unison breaks. Unlike bombo, I think the term ponche originated in popular music rather than in folkloric music.

I have to take issue with your statement “…remember that original clave was rumba clave which came over from Nigeria. Son clave evolved from the Spanish roots of afro cuban music”. You say that it’s another topic, but this or similar statements have been repeated a lot over the years, so I’d like to address that topic at this time.

What we call “son clave” and “rumba clave” both exist in Africa. That’s where they both came from. Son clave did not “evolve from Spanish roots”.

Since the Revolution, rumba clave has gradually replaced son clave as the most common guide pattern in Cuba.
-David


Was son clave commonly used in africa before the reverse exchange? If so can you pinpoint some recordings? I'd love to hear it.
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Re: Re:

Postby davidpenalosa » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:10 am

pcastag wrote:Was son clave commonly used in africa before the reverse exchange? If so can you pinpoint some recordings? I'd love to hear it.
PC


Yes. What we call son clave, rumba clave, and the 6/8 bembe bell, are in fact, the three most common bell patterns used in sub-Saharan Africa. A.M. Jones, the father of African ethnomusic studies, was the first academic to document their prominence, and considered all three to be “basically one and the same pattern”—Studies in African Music (1959: 211-212). That's the key. They are three forms of the same figure, which is expressed in both duple-pulse and triple-pulse structures..

Here is an example of "son clave," a pattern Ghanaian master drummer C.K. Ladzekpo calls "an ancient African bell pattern." This is the traditional Ga rhythm oge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJqzGd4o5pQ

This is a traditional Yoruba rhythm from Benin. The shekere plays the pattern we call son clave:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojh8-RwPbWI

Here is some documentation on the subject from the Notes section of my book The Clave Matrix:

6. Curtis (1920: 98) was the first to transcribe the triple-pulse “son clave”—a handclap pattern used to accompany “Manthiki”—a Shona-Ndua (Bantu) “spirit song.” She learned the song and accompanying clap pattern from Mozambican (East Africa) informants visiting the United States. Jones (1954: 59, 22) documents the use of the triple-pulse form in Zambia (Central Africa). Jones (1959: 2) and King (1960: 51-52) document the pattern’s use in West Africa. Ladzekpo (2008: per. comm.) cites several genres of music in Ghana (West Africa) alone that use both the triple and duple-pulse versions of “son clave”: the Ewe’s fofui and alfi and the Ashanti’s sekwi and akom. The Ga’s kinka, oge and kpanlogo use duple-pulse “son clave.”

Examples of “son clave” in music from Ghana and Benin:
"Waka" (oge) (Addy 1991: CD).
"Kpanlogo" (Kofi 1997: 30/CD).
"Fumefume" (Kofi 1997: 42/CD).
"Nago/Yoruba" (Benin, Rhythms and Songs for the Vodun 1990: CD).

Examples of “son clave” used in Brazilian Candomblé and Macumba rhythms:
"Afro-Brasileiros" (Perrone 1972: CD).
"Avaninha / Vassi d’ogun" (Musique du monde : Brésil Les- eaux d’Oxala 1982: CD).
"Opanije" (The Yoruba / Dahomean Collection 1998: CD).
"Popolougumde" (Pontos de Macumba 1999: CD).

Example of “son clave” used in Brazilian maculele:
"Maculele" (Pereira 2003: CD).
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Re: Guarapachangueo

Postby pcastag » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:23 pm

Very cool, thanks.
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