double rolls

[funky]

Hi all,

i've got mano a mano quite a while and was watching it over and over. After extensive trial and error i achieved it to get some nice 5 stroke rolls at slow tempo (16th at 110 bpm).
i read the other topics bout double rolls and get stucked on that palm drop pull method. right now im doin doubles like this: i use a lil bit of my forearm and accelerate finally the first hit with only my wrist ( and i try to keep it all the time relaxed) - with this method i get pretty easy a good bounce which helps me to do the second stroke. when i try to pull my hand immediatedly after the first hit the bounce is less high and so i can play the second note faster. I'm not sure if this is already a kind of pre-version of the correct palm drop pull method.

Can someone please explain me how i produce clear open tones when i use just the floating hand figure (that fish thing)like some guys have earlier said?

sorry at all that i just reopened a new topic for that - im pretty new here so please forgive me for eventually bad behaviour

rock on

[Simon B]

The tone of any good double stroke is never as 'pure' as any good single.

I tried the 're-bound' method for at least a year before corrected by a Cuban compadre. He did so at just the right time because I was getting constant wrist ache from the practice of this method - it is just not fast, efficient or controlled like the palm-drop way. There is a good parallel with snare drum technique. There you can just drop the stick and get re-bounds, but generally the better drummer moves into and out of the double-strokes with a controlled motion.

In terms of palm-drop technique - as with any other technique else start slowly, with exaggerated movment. The forearms doen't just go up and down, they push in and out for each double-hit. The first hit is essentially a drop on the skin like any old open tone - it's just that the fore-arm in-wards push motion produces a controlled re-bound of the wrist. At this point, the fore-arm retracts slightly while the wrist presses down-wards so that the ends of the fingers clip the skin. This is the slow 'practice' movement.

Done slowly the two tones will not be equal - the first will be more major and distinct from the second clip. However, when your technique builds up the motion is accomplished with much less movement, yet with more power, so that the two double-hits become equal in their power. If you look at Giovanni play, it may look as though he is using the 'rebound' method. In fact what I think has happened is that the palm-toe movement has become so small, so in-grained and powerful that to all intents and purposes it looks as though he is just letting his hands casually drop and rebound.

From this point triples become attainable, even quadruples. I am now working one hand rolls: don't get me wrong, these are not lightning fast, but I can do them much quicker and cleaner using the palm-dop on one hand rather than the re-bound method.

Hope this helps.

Simon B

[CongaCaja]

Question:
Is this "palm drop pull" method for double strokes such as:

<span style='font-family:courier'>p t p t p t p t...
R R L L R R L L ...

p = palm
t = toe (or tip)</span>

Or, are you talking about the following

<span style='font-family:courier'>o o o o o o o o
R R L L R R L L...

o = open</span>

I have the "Mano a Mano" tape and it seems to me that th Gio is demonstrating a lot of the #2, but I don't remember him referring to "palm drop pull"...maybe, I need to go watch it again. Anyway, #2 seems much more difficult that #1...which is part of my daily practice. I need to work #2 into my routine but it is fatiguing to work up the tempo on that one.
cjk



Edited By CongaCaja on 1096317221

[JohnnyConga]

I would recommend you try doing your doubles on your tumbadora before you go to the quinto or conga. The response off the tumba is better to start with cause the skin is a bit looser and the bounce of the head comes a little easier. Then I would go to the conga, and then start after you have developed better form and continuity in the doubles on the tumbadora....let me know what u think guys?...."JC" Johnny Conga.... :;):

[CongaCaja]

I'm trying understand which type of roll we are talking about wrt to "palm drop pull". My prior post is asking about this. Please refer to that post.

many thanks...

cjk



Edited By CongaCaja on 1096317556

[Simon B]

'Palm drop pull' is not my term - although I think I might be using it now after perhaps having picked it up off Johnny Conga - but it describes nicely the double-stroke method I am talking about. In answer to your question, CongaCaja, it applies to both types of doubles you mention - those which have the normal palm-tip sound in the middle of the head, and those which are double open tones produced towards the edge. The reason why in my mind the 'palm drop pull' refers to both kinds of doubles is because in principle the movement is the same, or at least very similar. Two open tones can be produced by dropping the palm to gain the first open tone (in the normal open tone position), allowing the re-bound to naturally throw the palm up slightly, and then clipping with the fingers to gain the second hit. This I am told is the way that Giovanni uses: in my opinion what he has done is become so adept at double-strokes that people assume he is not palm-tipping for his open doubles but using the 'rebound' method - the movement is so small.

Simon B

[CongaCaja]

Hmm...that's interesting Simon. To be honest, my memory of the open roll movement is somewhat different. I will go back to watch some more before commenting further. Thanks for answering my question.

cjk

[Liverneck]

Well put Simon! From what i've seen, doubles like the way Giovanni plays is kind of like the motion of a stick on reggae high-hat. I see it like a combination of down and upstrokes, with the upstroke letting the stick or hand just fall onto the head without lifting for it. The palm is the down stroke and the fingers drop down on the head when the palm is on the way back up getting ready for the next palm stroke.
The cool thing about 'palm drop pull' for doubles is that it can be incorporated into fast paradiddle combinations as well as rolls. I think it's easier to learn by using the R R L R L L hand sticking. (played as triplet sixteenth notes)
R R L R L L
P F o o P F

P=Palm, F=Fingers, o=open tone.

[JohnnyConga]

Actually it is a movement that comes "off the edge" of the head/rim by "pulling" the hand back and allowing it to kinda "double bounce" off the head. That is how I know it from Changuito from a video I have, he made in Panama, many years ago as he describes it on a hotel coffee table, then goes to 3 congas to do his thing. Filmed by Tany Gil in the 80's during Carnival.....Long before Gio came out with his stuff...."JC" Johnny Conga......do it on your tumba drum and see how easy the hand bounces. You get a better response with a looser skin. Then work your way up to quinto... :;):

[JohnnyConga]

I put the heel of my hand on the edge of the head and then "whip it" backwards so the rest of my hand "bounces" in response to the the reverse motion, and doubles it. Does that make sense now?......"JC" Johnny Conga....

[Liverneck]

Right on, makes perfect sense, as the hand pulls back the second note falls onto the drum. I kinda think of that pull back like an upstroke in the sense that there is no real down stroke to catch that second note. (I didn't express that very well in the other post).
I did a vid with a solo that shows a couple different ways the double could be played here . around 3 seconds into it, there's a more straight doubling based off tumbao. Around 14 seconds is a R R L R L L triplet sixteenth pattern that speeds up and finishes with the pulling back on the right hand to catch the second note of the double... at least with the right hand, for some reason I reverse it with the left double by striking the finger tips on the first note and muffled tone (flat tone, cup tone, whatever you want to call it) as the second. Instead of the left hand pulling away (off) the drum, it moves foreward onto it. At least on this vid it does that.

[Simon B]

Hey JC are you talking about a different method to what I and I think Liverneck have been talking about?

Simon

[82-1089072427]

Hey LiverNeck,
Nice soloing I'm impressed!
Aloha.

[JohnnyConga]

Hi Simon...I believe I am......"JC" Johnny Conga.... :;):

[Liverneck]

:D ya, JC's prolly talking about a different doubles technique, I'll keep my ears & eyes open to see if I can pick up on it better. Gio is a madman on his doubles, seems he plays them very low and with little effort, but they sound very big.
Aloha RumBa, thanks for the kind words! was fun to play it.