6/8 rythm

[blango]

Seriously,

I was joking about 32nds. like someone said earlier, notation in 8ths is a good reminder of what the rhythm is like. and memory serves as the final guide.

I think many western/northern players think of music like mathematicians. I certainly don’t. try to explain a Rembrandt with math.

funny story.. i know a really bright nuclear physicist. he was so smart that the government made him an offer he couldn’t refuse, right out of school. - No ****, they actually told him, according to him, that he could not work for anyone else, legally.

So, long short,

he quit physics at 30 yrs old because he always had to assign a value to infinity to get his mathematic models to more closely resemble the actual results in the natural world. He came to the conclusion that mathematics is inherently flawed, and should be redeveloped from the ground up. Something the unification theory might clear up, one of these days.

Wow, what a conversation. And since then, i see the limitations of western notation in the same way.

its like we are trying to model a multidimensional world with linear models. Very limiting and useless to spend too much time perusing.

Notation, for Cuban Folklore, for example, can be seen as cheat sheets - just shorthand reminders of what actually is.

32nd are never used for a reason. its useless to even try to read and play. Unless you are playing very very slowly - harder to 'feel' as most listening material is at a higher tempo.

Notation, for learning, should allow you to play and read at the correct tempo for the given rhythm.

Lastly, the great European players of the bay area do not play like Cubanos. they play a more close to the vest, by the book style. This, to me, is a mistake. One needs to learn the math, and then put it aside and hope it creeps into your persuit of feel. - for you mensa members: grammar is to poetry, as notation is to music :laugh:


Tony

[davidpenalosa]

Playing salsa and rumba these past two nights in Arcata with Francisco Aguabella, Sandy Perez, Jesus Diaz, etc, I can assure you that I didn’t once break out my thesaurus or slide rule.
-namedroppindavid



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1185621443

[Tone]

He David!

great to have this chat with you.
About the Matanza thing.

I also play it HHTT but the one is on the second H, right?
In a way you just made my point by writing it in both duple and triple pulse as they are both not quite the feel as you know. It is somewhere in between!

To make things clear I use notation a lot my self, I write everything I can because it helps me remember and many a time it helped me understand. So I certainly don't knock it.
But I am very conscious of its limitations. It is not not only that it is not music itself. It is simply inaccurate when it comes to the subtleties of swing and can be misleading for unaware people who could play it perfectly to the grid and not quite hear the swing yet.

We have all met congueros with good technique who don't even understand/hear the concept of feel.

But there is a bigger problem when it comes to polyrhythms. Take a simple thing like the Itotele and Onkonkolo parts in chachalokafun.
2 against 3. Now if you try to play those two together on two congas you can write everyhting in 12th and it will be accurate. You can count twelve beats per bar and play your left and right hands in all the right places. But really what you need to do is to learn to hear things in two and three at the same time and get your hands to do it! The same thing that you described with the samba tambourim. So it is possible but I think conterproductive to decompose it to the smallest common denominator.

I agree strongly though that "locals" will often claim that it is impossible to explain something only because they can't explain it. But in the case of feel , I maintain that you can not analyse it, it is just a particular flavor that you have to develop a taste for.

I have a Brazilian friend who has a theory that feel comes from the particular limitations of instruments and limbs interaction.

There is a very good example with the Alfaia in Maracatu where the emphasis is on the 16th after the one. The hand that plays the one holds the stick like they do in classical snare and makes a small movement from the side of the drum while the other who plays the strong beat holds the stick like a hammer and makes a wide movement.

Not only it is beautiful to watch but it also provides a build feel machine.

He had the same kind of theory as to how the Kabula handling of the Atabaque created the special feel which gave us Samba and partido alto.

An interesting theory!

I am also working on an educational CD/DVD that will help everyone who wants to play with fell! More in the fall...

What is your book going to be about David?

Um Abraço!

[windhorse]

David, Great show last night!!
My favorite was the rumba with you on Segundo and Pili at quinto! It got the crowd's full attention and more people were shaking and vacanou-ing than I'd seen during the whole camp!!
Thanks so much!!

Dave

[davidpenalosa]

Tone,
It’s funny, but I used to play that Matanzas Segundo part as you described.

HTTHHTTHHTTHHTTH
1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a


Now I play it:

HHTTHHTTHHTTHHTT
1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a

I don’t remember what prompted the switch. It may have been the Muñequitos’ visit to Arcata in 1992.

The itotele and okonkolo parts for chachalokuafun are an excellent example of polymeter with the potential of stroke displacement.

Several years ago my book mushroomed into eight books. The title of the series is “Unlocking Clave”. The first two volumes deal with cross-rhythmic exercises and accompanying theory. The third volume concerns folkloric music, with extensive coverage of lead drums parts, their modes and variations. There’s a book devoted entirely to rumba quinto, a popular music book, another one that I call “Advanced Solo Concepts”. One volume is about bata, with a transcription of the Havana igbodu, referencing the Bembe CD “Sacred Rhythms” (Regino Jimenez and Grupo Ilu Aña). Regino was my main informant, with help from Gary Greenberg and Mike Spiro. Finally, the last book concerns soloing on non-percussion instruments like trombone and piano.

I know….it’s overly-ambitious.

Tell us more about your upcoming book Tone.

Dave, thanks for your kind words. This week has been a blast! I’m kinda walking around in a daze though.

To everyone,
There has been a considerable amount disagreement in this thread and I really appreciate that it was done with respect, with no insults or put-downs.
-David

[blango]

Dave,

Isnt Pili's quinto work nice? I love his style. That brother has chops.

I have to say, I listen very intently to Pili, every chance i get. He is also such a kind person.

For qunto, there are only a few cats i try to follow,

Sandy Perez, Pili, Javier Navarette, buddha, and Trevino Leon, here in the bay....

David,

>>There has been a considerable amount disagreement in this thread and I really appreciate that it was done with respect, with no insults or put-downs.

Yea, that was nice.

Tony

[Mike]

Hi everyone,
having read every single post of this 6/8-thread with great interest, I´d like to contribute something to the NOTATION vs. FEELING discussion from a instructor´s point of view.

As I teach music to German kids from 10 years onwards at a local "Gymnasium", i.e. high school, I just want to mention that both notation and feeling are important.
Why? Because pupils here mostly don´t have a direct access to the Afro-Cuban tradition but usually enjoy playing those rhythms very much, NOTATION can be very helpful. 6/8 cowbell patterns, e.g., can be played more easily by the older pupils if they have some kind of notation, be it classical "Western" or graphic.
On the other hand, my understanding is that you also have to grasp, to find out by hearing yourself what a rhyhm is like - and thus enjoy it much more than repeating given patterns. Especially the younger ones like this approach. Finding out the basic rhythm of "America" (Westside Story/L. Bernstein) or exploring hemiolas in Irish jigs which are also in 6/8 are just examples of that approach which is based on listening/intuition/re-enacting, thus FEELING.
Of course this differs somewhat from how a professional plays, but the basic idea is to get children hooked on the fascinating panopticum of rhythms (for my headmaster: to give them a sound general education in music) and to hear and see cross-cultural phenomena (such as 6/8 rhythms!) as well. BTW, to be a bit off-topic the thread here on ´Latin ingredients in Jazz´ a short while ago was also a very interesting topic in that respect. Alas only it wasn´t led in the friendly and respectful manner I´m used to in this forum.
Again, my school is really no Afro-Cuban percussion institute (although I´m working on it :;): but the point is that pupils - and not only they - can get the best out of music if they combine the FEEL with more cognitive
structures like NOTATION - which is only a base for interpretation of course. Without getting too egg-headed :;): : Let´s not forget that musical research has recently revealed the constant interaction of left and right hemisphere which is why a musician able to combine spontaneous, improvisational aspects with "learned" structures, i.e. the wired experiences, which CAN include notation, but it doesn´t have to.

I think many western/northern players think of music like mathematicians. I certainly don’t. try to explain a Rembrandt with math.

Good point. Music can´t be explained or analyzed fully., neither can you play like a mathematician..

Last but not least: Talking about brainy matters, I´d like to say thank you to David for his mind-shaping expertise on the 6/8 topic. We are surely all looking forward to what you are going to publish
And I´m looking forward to more posts on the 6/8 topic!



Edited By Mike on 1185943152

[zaragenca]

The analisys of the subject of rumba suppose to be complex because it happened in a complex situation,…There was a constant interaction among the percussionist,the Carabaly/Approach,the Arara/Approach.,the Congo/Approach,the Mandinga/Aproach,and later the Yoruba influence approach into the lead,..this created several patterns which set- in, some foundations,but that foundations only evolved to the neighborhood-styles…Los Sitios,Jesus Maria,Atare,Belen,Cayo Hueso,etc.,,developed their own styles to approach the articulation and that style was transferred to the Comparsas by the ‘Die Hard Rumberos’ which were in a constant development and upgrading of the articulation riffs because the weekly competition in the Guaguanco setting and the annual competition during the Carnivals…And the reasons I learned about the real way it happened is because I was raised observing all this interaction which was still taking place in the Habana,Cuba.Dr. Zaragemca

[Mike]

And the reasons I learned about the real way it happened is because I was raised observing all this interaction which was still taking place in the Habana,Cuba.Dr. Zaragemca

... so? ???
Should this be a nature vs. nurture debate, I´m out, because having waffled enough about school myself I´d like the thread to return to the TOPIC of 6/8 rhythms



Edited By Mike on 1185944124

[Salseroberlinense]

Anyone heard of bembe de sao?