Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:33 pm

Well you guys are bringing up good points. Transcriptions don't really transmit a perfect sense of
the feel of the rhythm. Case in point, when I have missed a class and tried to learn what I missed
from James notes, I always feel something is lacking, mainly I don't have the memory of the feel
of the piece.

As far as Sandy is concerned he comes from the point of view of being protective of his livelihood,
which I can understand. Moreover he's my friend and teacher, if it bugs him, it bugs him.

In regards to the tradition or whatever. Surely that must be passed on from teacher to student. However
discussing music between peers and using written notes to illustrate the information is a completely
different thing. I'm a music student, I'm not trying to assimilate myself into a different culture or tradition.
I don't think anyone here has assumed that James and I were trying to pass on any sort of tradition to anyone.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:28 am

Tone & B&B ,
I gotta disagree w/ both of you's, even though I conceded that Sandy's sticking made the cachimbo part I was playing sound right.
I think it's a rare thing that a good , experienced drummer can't take a transcription of music he/she is accustomed to hearing and make it sound "right". Though I conceeded some legitimacy to the theory that one can't play with the right feel from reading a transcription , I gotta say that the rest is bullshit. I have heard so many "master drummers " say you can't play this and you can't play that , and it's all bullshit in my opinion. I can read transcriptions 99% percent of the time and play the stuff the way it goes .
I can transcribe 85% of the things I hear, and play them the way they go, and don't need any master drummers approval.
I know a cat that sounds exactly like the Tumba player from the Munequitos , he never met the guy from the munequitos , he just sat bye the cd player tirelessly figuring things out. He could of did it twice as fast with some good transcriptions , and that's my point.

I wonder why some master drummers can't conceed the fact that people from all over this country can play "their stuff" just as well , if not sometimes better , and that it's not "their" music anymore.
It's "ours".
A good lesson can be learned from all the white jazz players of the 60's who played just as well as the Elvin Jone's and Tony Williams. I know one on this forum . The same is happening now in this music, and it will come around soon where everything will be as universal as jazz is today. I can't wait
8)
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:48 am

Well when I said feeling, I didn't mean you couldn't play it correctly from the transcripts.

A good friend of mine said to me once that he feels that rumba is more about a feeling
than the rhythm being played. Everybody has felt when one group is playing guaguanco and
something is missing, and then the next guys play it and everyone feels it.

That's what I was trying to get at, the transcripts can relay the music, but the music is trying
to recreate a feeling in the listeners and players. I don't know how to relay the feeling felt from
a comparsa in a transcript. That does not mean that someone reading a transcript cannot recreate
that intangible feeling, it depends on the player. If someone has had the experience of hearing
the rhythm in a class or being played by people, they will have a point of reference to determine if they are getting it right.

But without some sort of reference like your friend and his munequito cd's I think it would be difficult to know
if the feeling was wrong through a transcript alone.

Like I said before when I get James transcripts from classes I missed, I might be "playing" it right by reading
them, but it's hard to know if I am "getting" it right.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby thomas newton » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:09 am

'Feel players' vs. 'Analysts' is the most divisive and futile debate I have come across in my short time playing music.
Tradition is not the custody of ashes but the propagation of fire.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Congadelica » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:55 am

Yah to that Bro :D
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby TONE74 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:07 pm

Like BNB said, if you have a refference then yeah you can play it cause you know what its supposed to sound like. But you have skills and a natural gift flaco999 to be able to get it just by reading the music.
I can play many salsa tumbaos cause I heard it so much that I know how it fits but if you give me for example a palo part without hearing what its supposed to sound like then I'm lost because I'm not familiar with it. Thats what I was trying to explain. There is fine tunning that has to be done for it to sound right. If you read it and play it without having ever heard it adding your "own feel" chances are you ain't doing shit.
Also I dont feel the music is in any danger from anyone as long as the people that created it keep passing it down to right people and they are. If they charge people for it then those people should be able to do whatever they want with it.
I should probably stay out of these discussions since I have limited knowledge about music but I figure I add my opinion anyway.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Thomas Altmann » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:54 pm

Thomas Newton:
'Feel players' vs. 'Analysts' is the most divisive and futile debate I have come across in my short time playing music.


I have always tried to be both. There are situations in the process of collectively creating art where you should better be able to see and communicate about music in an analytic way; you put things apart to put them together again as agreed upon. Of course I am talking about rehearsals. I have also learned a lot from recordings, which does not work without some analytic abilities. Teaching music is another realm.
On the other hand, music without feeling and emotion is unimaginable to me. I don't have to discuss that.

Tone74:
Also I dont feel the music is in any danger from anyone as long as the people that created it keep passing it down to right people and they are. If they charge people for it then those people should be able to do whatever they want with it.


In Cuba nobody pays attention to how someone is playing or notating their music in the rest of the world. They created the stuff, and they keep on creating, and if you don't play like they do (now), you either learn their way or you are out, no matter whether you are from the United States or Denmark or Japan. There is no danger. The only danger they are afraid of but will never be able to ward off, is that somebody else is making a business out of their material, some big money and big fame that they deserve and someone else is getting. But that's not typical Cuban; that's typical for anyone who is great at producing but less talented in marketing and Western ways of modern communication.

Thomas
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby akdom » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:02 pm

Hi all

I am looking for some basic variations for bachata on bongoes. Anyone has that?

Thanks

B
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby guarachon63 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:33 pm

I have heard so many "master drummers " say you can't play this and you can't play that , and it's all bullshit in my opinion.


Sorry to hear that. I'm far from being a master drummer, but for me, at a certain point knowing what "not" to play becomes more important than knowing how to play.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:50 pm

Hey Guarachon63,
I suspect that's why you are not a master drummer.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby guarachon63 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:41 am

Hey Guarachon63,
I suspect that's why you are not a master drummer.


Touché! :lol:
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:09 am

Hey Guarachon63,
LOL :D
No hard feelings my man, it's all about the music. :wink:
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