Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

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Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:00 pm

James (taikonoatama) and myself have been taking classes with Sandy Perez for a while now,
which I'm certain many of you know already. The two of us have been fastidiously transcribing
almost all the rhythms we learn from him. This is done by taking the class, writing notes in the class
and sound recordings. Sandy doesn't allow video.

My method was and is to take very careful written notes in the class, writing down the strokes, the sticking and
the location of the strokes relative to clave as best I could. I recently got a digital audio recorder so I use that now too.
Transcribing these rhythms takes hours, first there is the class, then there is deciphering the notes and the recordings and then there is entering the material into a computer program. It takes a long time, and sometimes mistakes are made and it can be frustrating.

I do it because I paid the money for the class and I want to be able to play these rhythms for the rest of my life. I know I have a very good thing going right now and don't want to squander it. It may not be like this forever.

Sometimes other students ask me for copies of my transcriptions and I have to make a decision, I usually don't give it to them. It takes a serious amount of time, work, patience and effort to make them, and if I don't know the person or play with them, I don't really want to give it out, I reckon they can make their own. If someone is my friend and I play with them, sure, if they ask I'll give them a copy, because it benefits me, which might be selfish.

Sharing this work is very personal, for me at least. I've shared rhythms here a couple of times, and I'm happy to do it when I feel like it, sometimes it opens me up to criticism, usually very constructive, I also have to think of Sandy Perez's reputation as my teacher, and of course I have to decide if I want to give away my hard work. I've got 36 rhythms, some with multiple versions so it's like 50, each one paid for in class fees and my own time. All from Sandy Perez, who has serious material. I've gotten material here for free from several sources so I enjoy giving back with my material and sharing in the discussion, and members here are very appreciative, but man that bembe stuff James and I have been posting, that was like 6 hours of class, at least 4 hours of transcribing for me, and a couple of sessions playing it with James and others. It's hard work for sure.

Well this is kind of turning in a long rambling rant, but other people here have shared their very valuable and professional level material here. I kind of wanted to start this discussion to hear other peoples opinions on the subject as well as to express mine.
Last edited by bongosnotbombs on Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:19 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby windhorse » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:15 pm

I've been sharing freely all the transcriptions I've done for several years. My opinion is that it benefits the person transcribing - me, the most. That's really why I do it, for my own practice.
Then, when someone else uses it, it's the icing on the cake to be the one who shared and helped spread the good vibes.
Being the one transcribing, I am the creator and owner, not who I got it from.. At least legally, and that's provided I have their permission. Whether or not it is legal isn't really my concern.. My concern is that it's Okay with who I got it from to share with my friends and comrades - that's you guys.
Now, most of what I share here comes from my friends who are from my culture. We just live that hybrid jet-set lifestyle we all know as the modern world.
I do wonder how someone from Cuba sees all this buzz of learners sharing transcriptions.
I think us enthusiasts realize that there is so much information flying around these days, that if someone really wanted to do wrong with your information, they'd be too inundated to get to square one.
In other words, if there are teachers out there afraid their gold is spread to those who'd mess it up and they might get blamed, then there's really nothing to worry about, since most people are too busy already learning something else to get all muddled up in whatever you're presently working on and sharing.
I think it's important however that we show some integrity, like Giordie and James have with double and triple checking to make sure they've got it how they were shown.
I would leave it up to the person deciding to share the information whether it is the right thing to do or not, and would never judge anyone making that decision for or against.
I think all of us act with the assumption that spreading this music is inherently a good thing, rather than let's say, "it should all stay with the guys from that culture, or it should not be spread over the internet where so and so might do something evil with it."
If we approach this with the glass half empty attitude, then we'd all stagnate and basically suck.. :shock:
If you're putting it there in a more quasi-permanent state, like on a website which can be accessed by anyone,, again, I say, "no harm, no foul." Only those who can decipher percussion notation have any hope of doing anything with it, and have any interest in seeing what you've presented.
To ask for compensation, I guess is left up to the transcriber. But, I would hope for integrity's sake, that if you ask for compensation, that you first have cleared it with wherever you got that information. Look at it this way, The music that was taught came from this person, and now you're taking that and getting something from others without acknowledgement of the source - if it wasn't cleared first.
They might want a cut, or that connection for themselves, or don't want it shared.. Of course you would hope that once it left their zone of influence, they let it go with the blessing, "do with it what you will",, but that's their decision and not yours.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:50 am

I think that it’s poor taste to purchase a lesson and then turnaround and sell a transcription of that lesson. I know of a couple of very successful North American teachers who immediately began teaching some material they had just learned. These were two unconnected instances. They had not “road-tested” the material and as a result, there were some lame photo-copied percussion charts out there for years with wrong info. As conga students passed along copies within our loose network, the incorrect info spread like a virus. It took years to correct. These teachers were going into many different drum communities and charging money for the info.

Sharing info freely among fellow students is another thing altogether. I’ve been doing that since I began. If you are going to sell something like a drum chart, you should be able to stand behind it. I can’t imagine selling essentially “class notes” would be a short-cut that would somehow pay off with more positive results than negative.
-David
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:27 am

I've never sold any of my transcription, and I don't ever intend to, but some students have asked me if I would, seriously. I can understand their feeling. They took the class, maybe they learned a new rhythm and they want to be able to study it and play it later. Most people can't' remember all 4 or 5 parts to a rhythm that was learnt in a 2 hour class. But you know, that's why you take the notes in the first place.

I'm curious why sharing class notes would have a different effect than selling them? I question the ethics certainly, but why would the effect be different? The notes are the same regardless of how they were acquired.
Last edited by bongosnotbombs on Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Chupacabra » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:34 am

This is a good topic and has been something that I've thought about in the past.
I always try to take audio and written notes as best I can for the special percussion workshops that come this way. These opportunities are so hard to come by in this area we have to get as much as we can from the experience.
There have been situations where I've been approached by strangers who saw me recording and taking notes and asked me if I can just give them copies and my answer is pretty much going to be a polite no.
I've also been asked by people that I've seen around at lessons, etc. and have asked myself: "Why are they taking classes if they aren't interested in even attempting to play what they are taught or to play it the way it is meant to be played?" To them, the answer is a polite no.
For the people who haven't attended the workshop or class and simply want to freeload? Guess what?
For these situations I have no second thought about my decision not to share.
This is the way I see it as an entry level student: it boils down to where I think this information will be going after I agree to give or trade it. Notice I didn't mention "sell" because it is not mine to sell. I am happy to share this experience and knowledge I've acquired with others who have a respect for the people and culture where this practise originates. For the people that I practise with regularly, I have no problem in sharing the wealth because I know that there is a certain commitment there and they would probably be willing to do the same for me if I missed out. What ever price we pay for the lessons and workshops that are put on by the people who are from the culture of origin, I would be willing to bet they're not making a fortune at what they do. I often wonder how the congueros, rumberos or djembefolas of the world feel when they see people of our culture (White, caucasian) really take a sincere interest in learning and appreciating this part of their traditions. I also feel concern at times knowing that some of these men come from countries that have serious political and economic troubles and they probably have family and friends back home while they are here trying to make some kind of a living whether their status is landed immigrant, refugee, or illegal. They know hardship.

BNB, I have followed many of your posts in the time that I've subscribed to CongaPlace and it is easy to see that you are a man of principle and have defined personal (and probably professional) ethics which is becoming harder and harder to find in this world. Your time and efforts in transcribing what you learn will most certainly increase your skill level. For a person to study anything at that level for any period of time will produce nothing but excellence, whether it's cooking, martial arts, wood carving or math.
I'm trying to draw an analogy of what I want to say here but can't think of one. What I'm trying to say is this: To share your experience and knowledge with others doesn't mean that you have to provide them with the raw composition of what you have learned. A skilled, knowledgeable and dedicated player will always shine through. They will inspire the beginner to want to learn more and the master to want to teach them more. Isn't passing on the tradition a significant contribution?
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Mike » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:05 am

Ethics and personal integrity is what I find most important, not only concerning the issue at hand
about whether to share transcriptions or not, but generally speaking in all of your life.
That is why I would like to support especially Geordie and David´s views on this matter.
Keeping info, transcriptions, rhythm charts etc. in an inner circle is OK if you feel like that.
But I would also subscribe to the idea in Chupacabra´s question:
Chupacabra wrote: Isn't passing on the tradition a significant contribution?

If it comes to teaching, sharing and spreading material is what you are basically there for as an educator in my opinion. And if you do not teach on the basis of written notation, I find it on the contrary very useful if someone else takes the effort to do that. A rhythm chart is just a crutch after all.
The real feeling and also technique can only be conveyed by a good instructor.

Having said that, commercial exploitation especially of someone else´s professionally recorded transcriptions is a completely different matter. I find this awful if it happens the way that was hinted at.

Just wanted to put emphasis on the fundamentally beneficial idea of sharing.
As long as you decide on your own what to share and what not, it cannot be a bad thing.
These are just my feelings from the heart. BTW Geordie, now I have also found the icon :)
Peace & drum
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:16 am

bongosnotbombs wrote: I'm curious why sharing class notes would have a different effect than selling them? I question the ethics certainly, but why would the effect be different? The notes are the same regardless of how they were acquired.


Geordie,
I think that selling class notes would come off as exploitive to a lot of people. Ordinarily when someone sells a chart or charges for a lesson, it's assumed that info has been distilled through that transcriber's or teacher's experience and knowledge. I'm all for sharing the info though. Thanks for posting those charts guys!
-David
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby taikonoatama » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:54 pm

Some thoughts on this:

I'm very sensitive to the fact that the music I'm transcribing is not really mine, and even the transcription only nominally so. I'm a student scribe sitting at the foot of the master. Of course, in many cases the music is not really the teacher's originally either, as most of the folkloric patterns have been handed down through the generations (albeit with some creative modifications here and there, especially when the music goes through a genius filter like Sandy Perez). But I don't feel I have license to profit from what I do - I'm really just taking what someone else is doing and writing it down as accurately as possible.

Mind you, it's a hell of a lot of work, this transcribing, with the source material being from someone like Sandy. I've been playing a long time and had a lot of teachers - this material is no joke, believe me, and it's not necessarily taught in a way that makes understanding how the parts fit with each other or the timeline/clave/bell readily apparent. A 2-hour class typically requires about 4-6 hours of mind-exploding transcription work (and I'm not half-bad at transcribing) with class scribbles and the recording and whatever is left of your brain after a class like that. It's brutal.

This last paragraph partially figures into why it's difficult to just give it away to just anyone who asks (or doesn't ask). At this point it's a special gift to be shared with classmates (who might also help with fine-tuning the work and filling in the blanks), people I play with, and trusted friends who, for the most part, are familiar with Sandy's playing.

Perhaps a more important reason that makes it tough to share beyond people I play with or who know my teacher (Sandy's) playing is that it's got his name on it. The issue here goes somewhat beyond what I wrote in the first paragraph about the material not really being mine. Having his name on it gives his implicit approval that this is the way he plays it, when really, it's one student's take on how he plays it. I respect Sandy too much to want to share anything with his name on it unless I'm 100% confident that it's correct. The longer I take his class the more some of these rhythms are re-taught, and at these times I can check what I had previously transcribed for accuracy, make any necessary adjustments, and then be 100% sure that I got it right (or as right as possible with material that's never necessarily played the same way twice ;^).

There's also the issue of a transcription being, really, just a script. People don't necessarily read it the same (or intended) way. If you're not intimately familiar with the playing style of the source (in this case Sandy, or at least with the specific Matanzas tradition of which he's a part), then there's little chance that you'll play with the correct nuance (which is a huge part of Sandy's playing - the push/ pull of time, his particular style of dynamics, the swing of the ghost notes, etc.) . You won't play Sandy's music the way he would expect it to be played. Based on purely the transcript, people might play it with a completely incorrect nuance/feel and then teach that to somebody else. I can't see Sandy being too pleased about something like that.

A lot of my thinking comes down to what I imagine the teacher would really approve of.

Anyway, it's an interesting topic and I'm clearly torn between wanting to spread the music but feeling protective of it and Sandy.

Class with Sandy in about an hour.

James
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:18 pm

Mike
A rhythm chart is just a crutch after all.
The real feeling and also technique can only be conveyed by a good instructor


taikonoatama wrote:
There's also the issue of a transcription being, really, just a script. People don't necessarily read it the same (or intended) way. If you're not intimately familiar with the playing style of the source (in this case Sandy, or at least with the specific Matanzas tradition of which he's a part), then there's little chance that you'll play with the correct nuance (which is a huge part of Sandy's playing - the push/ pull of time, his particular style of dynamics, the swing of the ghost notes, etc.) . You won't play Sandy's music the way he would expect it to be played. Based on purely the transcript, people might play it with a completely incorrect nuance/feel and then teach that to somebody else. I can't see Sandy being too pleased about something like that.

James

This is a great point, when working off of my or your transcription, I always have my memory and experience of playing the rhythms to supplement the written parts. The few times when I work from on of yours from a class I missed, I never have a "feeling" to substantiate the notes I'm working from.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:43 am

In a nutshell , music is meant to be shared and enjoyed. I personaly see nothing wrong with sharing transcriptions or any other knowledge for that matter.
How could it be in poor taste to share and talk about information?
Isn't it so cool that Sandy Perez's style and transcriptions are being played somewhere in upstate New York?

I totaly disagree with anyone who thinks it's not cool to share knowledge , it's so limiting.
You know what's funny ... Most of the "master" drummers I play with ( and I won't name names ) don't give a shit about Sandy's transcriptions.
They do things "their" way , and I find that just as frustrating and limiting.

I think everyone should share knowledge and talk about things, cause that what makes everything go around.
I'm also kind of insulted because I brought up these discussions about sharing rythems, and it's not like I came to the table empty handed.
I've posted several rythems from some really good teachers that I payed at one point in my life. Who gives a shit about the money?
What's really important is that we spread the stuff around , so it spreads and brings enlightenment drummers everywhere.

I want to thank James for sharing his transcriptions with me. I learned a lot from them, and when I'm not playing with one of my folkloric "masters", I'll use them with enjoyment and respect from where they came. I love transitioning from Meta to Agwe , it's so refreshing to play something new. I hope James got something out of what I said or what I posted, as I wouldn't ask anything of anyone without bringing something to the table.

That's my 2 cents and I hope I didn't offend anyone.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:19 am

flaco999 wrote:
I'm also kind of insulted because I brought up these discussions about sharing rythems, and it's not like I came to the table empty handed.
I've posted several rythems from some really good teachers that I payed at one point in my life. Who gives a shit about the money?
What's really important is that we spread the stuff around , so it spreads and brings enlightenment drummers everywhere.

Flaco

Hey Flaco, please don't feel insulted, theres not meant to be anything personal directed at anyone. I meant for this to be kind of a general open discussion on why people share their hard work, and to hear opinions on the subject. I mean look at that song that Thomas Altmann posted a while back, that is hard work and high quality stuff. I responded to your thread because you had shared stuff before, and also because it seemed like you would really appreciate and use the material. I admit if I handn't of gotten that impression I might have held back, but that wasn't the case at all.
I still feel like I wouldn't give out the stuff to just anyone, similar to Chupacabra's attitude, I'm working hard to make these notes, if I feel like someone is freeloading or whatever then I might hold back. I mean it's one thing to type in HSTHOO on this board, that is one way of sharing, but those sheets of James are like works of art.
But Dave had a really good opinion of being the recipient of the most benefit, I hadn't thought of it like that.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby jorge » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:35 am

James and BnB,
Of all the mayores I have known, from Matanzas, La Habana, and Oriente, Sandy Perez is one of the most generous with his knowledge. He has a real multicultural perspective, is open to people of other cultures, and willing to teach some of the rare gems from his culture and family in Matanzas. That does not mean he is giving it away for anyone to take and do with as they please. He, like all the masters, has spent a lifetime developing his style within the larger Matanzas style and music in general, and I am sure he feels similar to your feelings about all the hard work you put into transcribing what he has taught you, only to the nth degree. He is well aware that the roots of his music, creative as he is, are not his either, but come from the Villamil family, ChaCha, Pelladito, Titi, Regalao, Goyo, Jesus, Naldo, Pello, Luisito, Ivan, others in Matanzas, and ultimately from a whole culture in Africa, with influences from Europe and other parts of the world. He is also humble enough to recognize his debt to his teachers and ancestors and other influences. I suggest that, rather than trying to second guess how he feels about it, talk to him, ask him how he feels, show him this thread, and let him give you guidance as to what is acceptable to him and what is not.

Even better, I think it would be fantastic if one or both of you would co-author a book / CD / DVD with Sandy on Guaguanco Matancero, Bembe, Columbia Matancera, and some of the other music of which he is now one of the real mayores in the world. Performers get royalties on recordings sold, performances aired on TV, etc. Software companies get paid for the use of their software, without actually selling the rights to share it to the user. Although it sometimes takes hard work to pirate software, I am sure those who crack programs for a living work hard and have great computer skills, but this does not make it ok for them to sell the software without a fair share of the profit going to the actual authors of the software. This is an intellectual property issue, and to me the right thing to do would be to bring Sandy into the discussion. Since you are aware of a potential market for this material (eg, some of us here at Congaplace and our friends), I am sure Sandy would be eager to work with you to share his knowledge with a larger community of students. Nobody is going to get rich playing, singing, dancing, or teaching rumba, but at least those who are the real creators should be able to reap more of the fruits of their art and hard work.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:43 pm

BnB,
You are right about your's and James transcriptions ...
They are like works of art , and they were well written and very precise, you should treasure them.

I am very grateful to you both for sharing them because they have changed the way I play bembe.
As much as I adhere to folklore and tradition , I am a jazz musician and am always looking for ways to stretch the music to it's limits.
Thank you so much guy's for sharing , and if there is anything I can share with anyone , just ask.
I have watched and studied with the best of em ( I won't name names ).
I really believe talking about the stuff and puting it out there benifits us all.
You know , as many transcriptions as you can post from Sandy Perez wouldn't stop me from taking lessons from him should I ever visit your area , or even from taking some lessons from you for that matter.
Think about that..
Thank You much
Flaco
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Jure » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:03 pm

I love youtube,congaplace,... and everyone who are sharing transcriptions,videos,... And you know why? Couse where i live there is not some good teacher at least not close and with style and feel i like. And i could have every and i mean every singe transcription that example Giovanni,Anga,Mongo or any great conguero have,had but that would not make me one. I play congas because i love it and not to be better than anyone else so i don't mind give any transcription to anyone who want's it. But i am on the begining of learning rhythms so i don't have anything you guys don't have ;-) For now,... ;-) And when i will think i have it i will share it ;-)

We must help each other - practice,talent and everything else makes us unike

J
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby spiritdrum » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:48 am

Just an additional opinion from me, another student of Sandy's. Respect for Sandy is always on my mind when toouching on the topic of sharing transcriptions comes up, even pages of a book I got that was put together by an Musicologist. I have not found any solid transcriptions for Matanza-based afro-cuban rhythms online or anywhere except from source. That being said, if I was to share, I would ask Sandy's preference (Is it really our choice?). I know that he wants to eventually do digital course project for all and would hope that any rhythms are consistent in all sources. When I was studying with the Congolese in the Bay Area, there were not supportive of putting audio files up, unless they were part of a dance performance. have checked youtube so it may be different now.

I am also feeling James and Geordie time issue when transcribing. It required patience, diligence and time. I am always greatly to see it and add my two cents

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