Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby alabubba » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:59 pm

This is a very interesting thread, which make me realize how much value and importance we in this community place on the rhythms that once learned and mastered, bring us such joy. It reinforces the wonder and awe of the instrument, that it is so powerful (and this is a heart-power by my way of thinking) that it becomes a question of sensitivity and ethics as to how and to whom should this knowledge best and appropriately be passed along. Yet it must be passed along if it is to survive - none of us will live forever!

Each of us may find a slightly different answer. In my case, everything I learn from my teacher I share with my youngest son, who loves the congas as much as I do. My teacher knows this, and encourages me in this. In fact, I probably am a better student knowing that I will be almost immediately passing along exactly that which I am striving to learn.

I would not frown on anyone receiving just compensation for their labor of making a transcription - I have done extremely detailed guitar transcriptions and it is a lot of work. I have read that, at least in the US, melodies and lyrics are the subject of copywrite, but rhythms and chord progressions are not - for example, Bo Diddley can't copywrite the son clave pattern, even though he thinks he invented it. And likewise, no one can copywrite the I-IV-V 12-bar blues progression (or any other chord progression). These are shared common rudiments that "belong" to everyone, and just like without an alphabet there would not be written language, you can't copywrite a letter and charge others to use it. I am not a lawyer (so please don't take anything I say as being legal advice) but I would not think it a legal wrong to transcribe and sell rhythm patterns, from whatever source they were learned. And in my opinion, it certainly can't be wrong to pass along this wonderful cultural commons by teaching others. Yet, I also don't see where anyone should feel obligated to give away what they have worked so hard to obtain, either. I would give away anything if I knew that it would make a positive difference, but if someone had the same opportunity as I did to listen hard, take good notes, and make a transcription, but was just too lazy and wanted to benefit and take a free ride on my energy and effort, I would probably feel that they didn't want it badly enough for it to make a difference.

My $0.02 worth, YMMV!

Bob
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby congaDR » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:53 pm

Brothers,

I just talked to Sandy about this (3/09), and he is not cool with it in any way. Not happy with it, does not want his transcriptions published on line. Sorry to say. He asked for me to ask for them to be taken down.

What i want to know is, why was he not asked before y'all posted it? :|

Serious business, and entirely up to Sandy, in my eyes. You see him every week, let him decide how HIS information is passed on. There is a reason Sandy does not allow filming, right?? Im quite sure he believes the information must be passed from teacher to student personally, not from student to student. The tradition may not survive the misinterpretations by relatively novice students. His tradition is so expertly refined, due in large part to how it was passed on - meticulously in this way, from Master to student.

The work of transcribing, or the money and time spent on classes is not even worth mentioning. This is this man's family tradition, not remotely represented by a students simple transcriptions of a rhythm.

One cannot represent a specific 'feel' with quarter note charts, and we all know these rhythms are not played as they are charted out, even if all the information was given to the student. Standard notation is also inadequate, unless you feel like writing it all our in 64ths or something.

The fee for the class ($15) does not give a student ownership of the information, clearly. Would it be legal to publish and sell a book of your transcriptions of Sandy's material?.. perhaps, but it clearly is not right.

Does the man have to copy right his material? As students, we are supposed to be looking out for and caring for our teachers. That is a part of the tradition as well, no doubt.

The information taught in a group class of beginners/intermediate students often does not represent the actual rhythms played in practice. Without knowing what he is, and what he is not teaching you, you can easily misrepresent the Villamil family tradition.

I am happy to share Regino's information, for example, as we had a long discussion about it. He believed the tradition may vanish, unless it was openly shared, in all forms, by all those who know anything about it. Of course he would have preferred the master to student path, thats what he believed. So I openly share any information he left for me, in the spirit of honoring him along with the tradition.

I just wished we would have talked to the Maestro about it, before posting the charts.

Tony
Last edited by congaDR on Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:22 am

Tony,
That was an excellent post, even though I disagree with you a 100% , and shouldn't Sandy be the one to post the opinion you expressed? Unless I understood you wrong , I agree with Rejino. The music is going to be lost if it is not shared. People who share should be very precise in how they share it , and B&B and James were very precise, and I want to thank them again for sharing.
Believe me , I have all the respect in the world for Sandy , and if I were in the bay area I'd be there taking classes with you and he.
Like I said , as long as people are respectful and responsable , what's the big deal?

You know , it's because of James and B&B's postings that I want to actualy take a trip and meet Sandy.
I didn't want to before I saw the transcriptions.

So that's my point of view , and I got to say this...
This forum is really lame when people aren't talking about, and posting music.
I hope your post doesn't discourage anyone . But don't worry , I've been transcribing the iya parts to latokpa from abbilona.
I'm gonna figure out how to scan them , and I'm gonna share them with everybody.
And your gonna love them Tony :)
No disrespect
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby windhorse » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:59 am

We live, we learn,, from everybody, and everything..
I once years ago really pissed off a friend and fellow player by posting some sound clips of our rehearsal.. I immediately took them off, and apologized..
Hey sorry,, I didn't see any harm...
You've always got to ask first..
Sure hope everything's OK over there!!
No worries though,, I looked at that stuff and since the handing was super crazy, I figured I'd wait until the situation demanded it. Otherwise I'm playing those rhythms our way.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:57 am

Well, basically, if a teacher teaches me under the condition that I keep the material secret and for private use only, I have to respect that. But why then should I take lessons? Whatever I learn, I want to use freely; play it, teach it etc... And if in a newsgroup the respective subject comes up, why shouldn't James and Geordie not have the liberty to dispose of their knowledge? The way in which they (you) shared the material did not appear as any kind of selfish plagiarism to me. Rather it was helpful and respectful at the same time.

After all, I'm not going to use these rhythms in performance until I can back them up with corresponding listening and analyses. Much less I would dare to teach the stuff unless I can really play with it, including improvising on the caja. It's only good to have an idea what else there is in the field of Bembe.

When I give a workshop, I know I cannot avoid that one of the amateurs - who pays me for his/her participation - will go out tomorrow and hand the material on, perhaps in a way I wouldn't want to hear. I can't. If I wanted to exclude that, I'd have to earn my money with something else. My opinion.

Thomas
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby congaDR » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:18 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

Thomas - "Much less I would(nt) dare to teach the stuff unless I can really play with it, including improvising on the caja. It's only good to have an idea what else there is in the field of Bembe."

Yes, Thomas, this is what i believe as well, and that is why sharing transcriptions without understanding what you are transcribing is risky, at best. But to me, it does not matter what i think about it.

My opinion is simply to let the teacher dictate how his information is shared. Others may look at it differently, and that's their call. If Sandy is ok with it, great. If not, i dont think its ethical.

I think both Regino and Sandy are 'right', in that they both have sound reasoning for their decisions, and they obviously have earned the right to make those calls. We have little idea of what they know, really, and who knows what they have been told by the gods, the ancestors, and their teachers. We may learn something from what Sandy is trying to do - protect and nurture his tradition the best he can.

fyi, Sandy does not use the computer, and is rapidly learning english, so he is not able to represent himself here in this discussion, as of today - this is the only reason im posting this, as per request from the Maestro.

Tony
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:36 pm

Tony,
You make it sound as if the "GODS" and "Ancestors" only talk through Sandy and Rejino ?
You even go as far as to say that it is "his" tradition?

Funny , I was born in "his" tradition and I'm not cuban. I wonder what guy's like Milton Cardona and Jerry Gonzalez would think of that?

What do you think that a Nigerian drummer would say about the way Sandy plays for the Orisa? , or even better,,,
What do you think some drummer from Dahomey would say about the way Cubans play Arara ? LOL

C'mon bro. Respect is one thing , but when it comes down to it, bembe is 6/8 , and if you want to play caja in a bembe just be real slick and play in 6/8.
Oh, and keep the tones on one and three respectably.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Sandy never "dictated" as to how anything taught to us could and couldn't be shared.
The only thing he ever requested was not to be videotaped.
I mean what are we supposed to do, only play in his class? Only with other students?
We posted a few rhythms to share in discussion with interested and informed percussionists.
James and I will be ironing this out with Sandy directly as I am sure he does not understand the
whole story.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:52 pm

B&b,
Let Sandy know the level of discussion and interest that came out of talking about his and Rejino's transcriptions.
It's not like we are a bunch of outsiders looking to steal his music. I think anyone who finds this forum is serious drummer, and has the level of repsect to share in all kinds of folkloric tradition.
Like I said , I am considering taking a trip out there and may even want to talk to sandy about working out some lessons online if possible. Most of my interest came from our discussions and sharing of knowledge.
Thanks again
Flaco
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:55 pm

flaco999 wrote:Like I said , I am considering taking a trip out there
Flaco

Hey I hope you make it out, be sure and let us know if you do.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:11 pm

flaco999 wrote:if you want to play caja in a bembe just be real slick and play in 6/8. Oh, and keep the tones on one and three respectably.


Flaco, I think you made a mistake when you attempted to make your point by minimizing the uniqueness of Sandy’s lessons (see quote above). Let’s not go there.
-David
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby congaDR » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:46 pm

flaco999 wrote:Tony,
You make it sound as if the "GODS" and "Ancestors" only talk through Sandy and Rejino ?
You even go as far as to say that it is "his" tradition?

Funny , I was born in "his" tradition and I'm not cuban. I wonder what guy's like Milton Cardona and Jerry Gonzalez would think of that?

What do you think that a Nigerian drummer would say about the way Sandy plays for the Orisa? , or even better,,,
What do you think some drummer from Dahomey would say about the way Cubans play Arara ? LOL

C'mon bro. Respect is one thing , but when it comes down to it, bembe is 6/8 , and if you want to play caja in a bembe just be real slick and play in 6/8.
Oh, and keep the tones on one and three respectably.


Yes, the masters of Nigeria and Benin are welcome to post Sandys transcriptions. :D

When i refer to Sandy's tradition, im not talking about the tradition as a whole, im referring to the Villamil family specifically. Rather than getting into an ethnomusicological answer, let me just say that the Villamil family tradition is unique.

by the way... id play it in 12/8 and let the gods tell you where to drop the caja (male/female) :wink:

I want to point out, that the posting of these transcriptions were with the best of intentions, and the cats who posted them are seriously solid people and dedicated to learning what Sandy is teaching. No disrespect intended, its a touchy subject, obviously. I posted my concerns publicly, only because it is the subject of the thred. Perhaps i should have PMed this one. Its hard to express what Sandy wanted me to say, without stepping on toes. Sorry for the lack of tact.. im known for that. :oops:

Tony
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:04 pm

You know what? I'm going to just agree with you that Sandy's tradition is unique and that I will let the gods dictate when I drop the tone ;)

I'm here to make friends and learn .
I hope to meet you all when I come to San Fran.
Be well
flaco
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby congaDR » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:05 pm

For those who want to know more about the incredible Villamil extended family.

http://www.afrocubaweb.com/villa.htm

for those who live too far away, or dont have the cash to travel for lessons, Mike Spiro is the man:

http://congamasterclass.com/

Mike Spiro and Sandy play together often, so if we want to learn from Sandy, the thing to do would be for all of us to request that Mike ask Sandy to do a online class on congamasterclass.com. He has other local guests... why not Sandy.

Mike studied with Aguabella, Pancho Quinto, Regino and several other heavies. He also has the fattest book out there for learning the congas... if yall didnt already know that.

Peace,

Tony
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Tonio » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:06 am

Yo Bros' Been sitting out for a while :)

I am torn on this one , but I agree with both sides of this topic.

Though my initial thoughts are with Tony, yet I see nothing wrong with extending education.

The problem I see with posting this information, is that some not so able (so to speak) individuals can grab up the info and pass it on in a different mindset-or context. Perhaps even call themselves a master, I think we have witnessed that before with an individual here.

Yet , I see no problem for a perspective teacher passing on information that has the capacity of doing so. i.e. Michael Spiro etc.

Sandy may not be aware of what is technically capable/attainable in this country, as Tony says he is learning english at this point.

That being said, I would hold the information I learned close to my heart and practice/perform with that information what I am capable of. If I had the pedigree of teaching, and was able to pass the information to uphold the tradition, then maybe its a good thing. I can't say that I can. Some people have the teaching skills, and some are performers.

Many so called "musicians" learn the ol' geetar, and teach on the side to make some income, and they are happy being part of a music world.

Sorry, thats not me.

T
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