Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby jorge » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:24 pm

Chupacabra,
You make a very good analogy,
Quote/
Just some food for thought: If you were to attend an event such as an international soccer match for example, and the national anthems start and the host country just makes an absolute botch job of your country's anthem - how does that make you feel? Or how about this: You are a devout religious person and a certain pop princess of marginal talent who makes fortunes from her over-hyped music decides that she wants to incorporate references pertaining to your faith into her act in a distasteful, superficial manner so she can make more money. How would you feel?
/EndQuote

Sometimes we don't really think about things like this from the other person's perspective, your examples are helpful in that process. Great post.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby guarachon63 » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:12 am

Tony wrote:
...Im quite sure [Sandy] believes the information must be passed from teacher to student personally, not from student to student. The tradition may not survive the misinterpretations by relatively novice students. His tradition is so expertly refined, due in large part to how it was passed on - meticulously in this way, from Master to student.


I wonder, can Sandy really think that this great tradition might succumb to a threat from "relatively novice students"?

If so, how depressing! If that is the case then I will stop playing right now, so that the tradition may survive! :D

Seriously, I have as much respect for Sandy as anyone, but if the quote above accurately reflects his beliefs, I hope Tony, James, BnB and his other students will begin a conversation with him about revising this unfortunate position. In the meantime, if this is something he is really concerned about, he might be advised to consider limiting his teaching to a select group of advanced players, rather than giving lessons to anyone who shows up to a workshop with a drum, a tape recorder and $15.

But I think the issue is most likely his unfamiliarity with the internet. Hopefully as he becomes more acquainted with it he will feel less threatened by it, and recognize it can be of immense help to preserve and pass on the tradition. Here again is where the students might be able to teach the master a thing or two.

Also I have to say that the recent "national anthem" analogy was lost on me. Maybe I missed the point, but it seems to me that to imply that what two obviously dedicated students have done here, simply sharing (however imperfectly) some of what they have learned from their teacher in a generous and respectful way, represents some sort of mortal danger to the afrocuban music tradition, or is equivalent to some international public insult is absurd and wrong, and not the direction we should be heading.

respectfully,
Barry
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby jorge » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:05 am

Hi,
Barry, I don't think the analogy was referring to this particular situation with Sandy and his students' transcriptions, I interpreted it in a more general sense. When folks try to play or sing traditional music and do it badly or wrong, it can grate on the ears of people who know, play, and live that music and who feel an ownership of it, even if those people can't sing or play it well either. We see this all the time in Central Park and other rumbas, the resulting behavior is often perceived as AfroCuban guaperia and chauvinism. I think the analogies were a useful way to illustrate to some of us, who may on occasion butcher a guaguanco, cross the clave, drag the timing, sing nonsense syllables, or otherwise screw up an otherwise beautiful song, how we may be perceived by those who take the music very seriously. On a financial level, we can see how the many lousy adaptations of Afrocuban songs performed and recorded by salsa bands without credit or royalties being given, could strike a nerve of people who know who wrote the song, or who sing the songs all the time in their religious ceremonies. It could be annoying even if the songs were well done. If they were badly done, and many were, that could really get under people's skin. I know you understand all this, and I think that was all that Chupacabra was saying. Chupacabra, help us out here, am I paraphrasing what you meant accurately or were you saying something else?

Regarding the perceived threat to the tradition, I think Barry is right in his suggestion that the internet is a new and powerful unknown to many of the old masters. The traditional way of selecting whom to pass on the real deal knowledge relied on personal relationships between teachers and students. Students who got it wrong would be shouted out of the rumba, and would never get to sit down to play fundamento bata or bonko enchemiya. They did not get a chance to pass on their incorrect knowledge to many people, except in the commercial music scene. People who weren't down with the mission of santeria, palo, or abakua didn't get to learn the music at an advanced level.

Nowadays, with so many people playing aberikula bata, drumming circles, YouTube home videos, and the whole digital world, the masters rightfully feel they have lost control over who learns their music. I think correctness of the music as well as hand picking of the people who would learn it, are both factors. With internet and commercial digital distribution of recordings, videos, and transcripts of the music, who gets hold of it and reproduces the music in some form really is out of control of the teachers. The various Afrocuban musical traditions have for centuries protected themselves by careful selection of who is taught the music, and by creating such an inherently complex music.

People have already started sampling, and even digitally sequencing, bata and other Afrocuban rhythms. Some of those people have no connection or commitment to the culture from which the music came. Whether the eventual commercial use of those rhythms will produce significant trickle down royalties for the masters whose families and religious institutions have kept the music alive and growing for centuries remains to be seen. Given accepted practices of the record industry, and examples we have seen in the history of the development of rock from blues, and salsa from Afrocuban music, I am not hopeful.

So I think there is some justification for the masters who are starting to see the potential of the digital revolution to feel out of control and threatened by a huge powerful unknown. The digital revolution has come close to destroying the very recording industry that created it, with studios shutting down around the world and many engineers, musicians, and others unable to make a living in music anymore. Hopefully the infrastructure of Afrocuban music, which has already survived centuries of racism, slavery, capitalism, communism, and other cultural and religious oppression, will be more robust and survive the digital revolution and whatever else comes along in the next few centuries.

Jorge

Edited for clarity and additional thoughts
Last edited by jorge on Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:34 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Chupacabra » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:18 am

Yes, I think that pretty much sums it up Jorge. You beat me to it!
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Mike » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:01 am

Cupacabra wrote:"If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better make certain that he has something of value to replace them" -Basuto proverb


I like this signature pretty much!

jorge wrote:The digital revolution has come close to destroying the very recording industry that created it, with studios shutting down around the world and many engineers, musicians, and others unable to make a living in music anymore. Hopefully the infrastructure of Afrocuban music, which has already survived centuries of racism, slavery, capitalism, communism, and other cultural and religious oppression, will be more robust and survive the digital revolution and whatever else comes along in the next few centuries.

Jorge


It seems to much of a difference IF someone destroys Afro-Cuban culture by altering traditionally handed-down practices at all or rather WHO does it and HOW, and ultimately to which end.
The digital century has definitely changed many cultures on this planet. Like Jorge, I wonder if things can be stopped.
Just another example: A couple of years ago, Peter Gabriel used samples of a great East African mbira-player and singer (Hukwe Zawose from Tanzania, now deceased) WITHOUT his prior knowledge or consent. This is stealing the soul of a man´s and a country´s culture to me.

On the other hand, what the great Angà did on his last album was a good example of how - as a part of the living tradition - one can still keep the spirit without destroying anything, on the contrary, it proved that
Tradition is not the custody of ashes but the propagation of fire.



I have followed this topic with deep interest - these are just my two humble & pensive cents.
Peace & drum
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby congamyk » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:38 pm

I hope the Internet is turning more people onto the music.
Hopefully that translates to more interest, more students and more money for the best teachers.

Afro-Cuban music and culture survived this.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Joseph » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:15 pm

Interesting discussion.
My random thoughts

I am seeing two themes develop here
Intellectual property rights and/or “purity of the tradition”

Recently on my local PBS new show “The News Hour” they have had a weekly feature called “Arabesques” highlighting musicians from the Mid-East. This past Friday they had an Egyptian pianist / keyboardist (sorry can’t remember name) who grew up with all the musical influences of the mid-east, then heard American Jazz on the radio, and it became his ambition to study Jazz in NYC…which he did, at one of NYC’s noted conservatories.
He is presently back in Egypt where he is a noted and very popular composer / arranger / performer, blending Jazz with traditional middle-eastern modalities and song structure.
In his interview he made some observations that caught my ear:
(to paraphrase): ”…we are all mixers now, in this digital age, with the ease and access to so many varied traditions."(Speaking of his own compostions): “None of this is really new, it’s just a combining of different traditions in new ways”

Mike wrote:It seems to much of a difference IF someone destroys Afro-Cuban culture by altering traditionally handed-down practices at all or rather WHO does it and HOW, and ultimately to which end.
The digital century has definitely changed many cultures on this planet. Like Jorge, I wonder if things can be stopped.

Good luck hoping to stop the unfolding of human events! The digital age is here, the whirlwind has been unleashed….for better or worse…I think mostly for the better.

I don’t think Afro-Cuban culture is going to be destroyed by scattered participants altering traditional handed-down practices. (or passing around transcriptions to interested individuals)

There may be sub-set mutations…some may live, some may die. A firmly rooted tradition endures. We must remember that Afro-Cuban culture itself is a mutation/evolution of Spanish African Moorish Caribbean influences that came to fruition in spite of overwhelming odds, and probably many along the way who decried the way the evolving culture was corrupting the pure (African, Spanish) traditions.

There are plenty of guardians and stewards passing down their traditional ways, Sandy Perez being one, as there are other guardians of numerous cultures passing down their traditions. But once they've passed along the knowledge, it's like seeds to the wind: Some may land on fertile ground and find great nurture, others may struggle along in a marginal environment, others may shrivel and dry in a desert of dis-interest

Traditions (musical, whatever) are a part of culture. Culture is a living, breathing, thinking, innovating entity.
Passing on a tradition, and insisting it remain static or frozen in time reminds me of the cultural paranoia of the French, who insist on only one proper way to speak the language and refuse to amalgamate new words into it.
Eventually it will go the way of Latin and become a dead language, because of ideologue purist speakers who are adamant of its purity, and refuse to adapt. Meanwhile Spanish and English (and Spanglish) will continue to thrive, because of their speaker’s willingness to accept and invent new words, love of slang, and word-play.

Firmly rooted cultural and musical traditions move in geological time...unless destroyed by catastrophe, or disrupted, swift-kicked by great innovators... while we, as participants in those traditions move in generational time: we have only our individual lifetime to contribute to, maintain, or dilute, or ignore that tradition. We may have an effect on that tradition in our lifetime(for better or worse), but only the test of time will show how it has evolved, irrespective of our input.

I think intellectual property rights is the heart of the issue... and when dealing with folkloric, traditional, handed down, of unknown authorship rhythm patterns...that's a very grey area.
JMHO
~Joseph
Last edited by Joseph on Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby sjhendee » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:55 am

I too read this thread with GREAT interest. I am the “tech guy” behind Michael Spiro’s site CongaMasterClass.com. I appreciate all of the comments of support and encouragement. If anyone wants to try out the site, use the coupon code CONGAPLACE and get $10.00 off the first month.

1. We are happy to take suggestions for content on the site. If we haven’t covered it already more often than not we will in the future. If you go to the site you can see what we have begun to cover. As long as we have subscribers Mike and I are very committed to adding content and guest teachers as we can. You can imagine the suggestions will be endless and we will try our best to keep up! Anyone can use http://congamasterclass.com/index.php/Feedback/Feedback.html to make a request, especially non-subscribers--if it will get you to subscribe ;-)

2. Adding guest teachers is a tricky situation. If you think of our site as a traditional book (just with videos). Someone might have a similar product or even a different angle and would feel like their work with us could be in competition with what they are trying to do OR the notion that everyone should be writing a book or recording a video, just doesn’t work. I am not speaking of anyone specifically…. just in general business terms it might not be a “match. We have no desire to make someone “exclusive” to our site, but they might feel differently. Also, if you watch Michael and his approach to working the camera he brings a lot of skill, aside from his playing and teaching. VERY challenging to do. Not everyone can do play to the camera or talk without hesitation to audience of no one.

3. Michael and I debate often the inclusion of written material on our site. My personal background is that of a classically trained trumpet player and a high school band director. In my world, written material IS the tradition. But, as we all know…. this is clearly a Western European tradition and is difficult (some might say impossible) to apply a notation system with a limited vocabulary to a music of a different culture with so much nuance and subtlety. I think we will include it at some point, but for now….

4. Many, teachers are headed in this direction (or would like to). Its definitely part of the new world of teaching. In many ways, music is a bit behind the times but more and more you will see sites like ours cropping up. You can only imagine the interest in what we are doing, not only in the Afro-Cuban genre but others as well. I’m happy to be part of it in any way I can and encourage anyone else with great teaching chops to get involved at some level. Out model was a friend of Michael’s Jason Maguire of flamenco-lessons.com. He has a terrific site for learning flamenco guitar!

Finally, say a little prayer for music education this week, especially in California. March 13th is the deadline for notifying teacher that they could be layed off for the next school year. Music is defiantly on the chopping block. In SF alone they are talking several hundred young and energetic teachers will be “pink slipped” This translates bad news for thousands of us throughout the state and beyond. Layoffs are particularly bad for music programs and usually affect elementary programs the first. I could go on and on with this one as well.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby Chupacabra » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:08 am

Finally, say a little prayer for music education this week, especially in California. March 13th is the deadline for notifying teacher that they could be layed off for the next school year. Music is defiantly on the chopping block. In SF alone they are talking several hundred young and energetic teachers will be “pink slipped” This translates bad news for thousands of us throughout the state and beyond. Layoffs are particularly bad for music programs and usually affect elementary programs the first. I could go on and on with this one as well.


Now THERE'S something that evokes outrage! As if future generations won't have enough challenges as it is, denying them the education they will need to possibly make the world a better place and denying them the necessary tools for their success in the future is inexcusable regardless of how bad the economy is.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:37 am

guarachon63 wrote:Tony wrote:
...Im quite sure [Sandy] believes the information must be passed from teacher to student personally, not from student to student. The tradition may not survive the misinterpretations by relatively novice students. His tradition is so expertly refined, due in large part to how it was passed on - meticulously in this way, from Master to student.


I wonder, can Sandy really think that this great tradition might succumb to a threat from "relatively novice students"?

If so, how depressing! If that is the case then I will stop playing right now, so that the tradition may survive! :D


Barry

That is not Sandy's point of view at all. We had a short discussion on the subject yesterday. His concern is mainly about his livelihood,
which is understandable, similar to some of the points that have already been brought up. I don't really want to go into it right now.
But he has requested that we use our transcripts for personal practice.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby congaDR » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:40 pm

bongosnotbombs wrote:
guarachon63 wrote:Tony wrote:
...Im quite sure [Sandy] believes the information must be passed from teacher to student personally, not from student to student. The tradition may not survive the misinterpretations by relatively novice students. His tradition is so expertly refined, due in large part to how it was passed on - meticulously in this way, from Master to student.


I wonder, can Sandy really think that this great tradition might succumb to a threat from "relatively novice students"?

If so, how depressing! If that is the case then I will stop playing right now, so that the tradition may survive! :D


Barry

That is not Sandy's point of view at all. We had a short discussion on the subject yesterday. His concern is mainly about his livelihood,
which is understandable, similar to some of the points that have already been brought up. I don't really want to go into it right now.
But he has requested that we use our transcripts for personal practice.


To clarify, what i said was, Sandy believes, as i understand him, that the tradition should be passed from someone who knows the tradition to someone who does not, as opposed to, from someone who does not know the tradition, passing along some approximation of what they think the tradition is.

the idea that the tradition may not survive the misinterpretation of the novice student trying to pass it along, that's my opinion. I think you should be able to play the rhythms, at minimum, before trying to inform others of how they go, let alone know the songs, the dance, the context, etc.

I think brother jorge said it best, and this was posted before the transcripts:

jorge said:

"Of all the mayores I have known, from Matanzas, La Habana, and Oriente, Sandy Perez is one of the most generous with his knowledge. He has a real multicultural perspective, is open to people of other cultures, and willing to teach some of the rare gems from his culture and family in Matanzas. That does not mean he is giving it away for anyone to take and do with as they please. He, like all the masters, has spent a lifetime developing his style within the larger Matanzas style and music in general, and I am sure he feels similar to your feelings about all the hard work you put into transcribing what he has taught you, only to the nth degree. He is well aware that the roots of his music, creative as he is, are not his either, but come from the Villamil family, ChaCha, Pelladito, Titi, Regalao, Goyo, Jesus, Naldo, Pello, Luisito, Ivan, others in Matanzas, and ultimately from a whole culture in Africa, with influences from Europe and other parts of the world. He is also humble enough to recognize his debt to his teachers and ancestors and other influences. I suggest that, rather than trying to second guess how he feels about it, talk to him, ask him how he feels, show him this thread, and let him give you guidance as to what is acceptable to him and what is not."
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby vinnieL » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:42 am

While I understand Sandy"s feelings the reality is that the transcriptions whether accurate or innacurate or whether they contain the right feel or not where made by an individual not by Sandy. I say this with all the due respect to Sandy but the bottom line is the transcriptions were not made by him. The other problem i see is that unfortunately that is the reason why so much of this music will be lost with time. And this talk of not being able to transmit the right feel through transcriptions is ridiculous. Unless you as musicians are content to simply be a clone of someone each musician imparts his own feel this is true in Cuba or anywhere else in the world and with any genre of music. I guess Pello is rolling around in his grave since there are so many mozambique transcripts out there and also variations of his mozambique. Changuito must be losing his mind that there are so many songo transcripts? I would personally respect the man if thats how he feels but i don't agree with it. JMHO
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby TONE74 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:57 pm

And this talk of not being able to transmit the right feel through transcriptions is ridiculous.


Hmmm, I think most people would disagree with that one. I had a couple of lessons with a teacher before and let me tell you feel and timing is everything. I'm not sure at what level you are but to me thats the whole point of going to someone for lessons. learning the pattern is only the beginning in my opinion. Go to someone who is at the level of Sandy or any old time rumbero and quickly you'll realize how little you know. I know I did. By learning things the right way you are not being a clone. You become a clone by copying the improvisations that others use. The base is the base and from there you go your own way. I'm not good or have been playing long but I have come to that conclusion. Also my humble opinion. Peace
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby flaco999 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:08 pm

Vinney,
As a jazz musician I totaly agreed with you about this whole not being able to transmit the "right feel" through transcriptions bullshit. Until, I transcribed the cachimbo and caja part to Bembe Meta and didn't use Sandy's sticking. Some guy's I am playing with kept telling me something is off and not right , and then B&B and James shared their transcriptions specifying that one needed to use Sandy's sticking to get that " Matanzas " sound, and voila.... It now sounds legit.

I still don't think it was right that Sandy ask those guy's to pull the transcriptions though, I think sharing knowledge is a beautiful thing , and I'd take sharing ideas over the "right feel " anyday.
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Re: Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

Postby vinnieL » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:11 pm

Tone Your quoting just a portion of a whole statement and yes when read like that it can be mis understood. What i meant was that if something is transcribed musically the feel is mostly based on the individual playing the music. It's similar to a professional violinist just picking up a piece on sheet music and just simply playing it the way it is put on the sheet music, does the sheet music have feel? no but can a player give it that? I in no way was trying to take the importance of having a teacher out of the equation there is nothing more important for the student of the art as hving a good teacher. Anyway peace guys I'm out.
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