Too many Sambas

[Tone]

Dear David,

I totaly agree with you when it comes to African rhythms and a lot of folkloric music.
The clave is a continuous concept which is useless to try to define with a one or even a beginning or an end.

Now Samba is a completeley different thing. It is a a meeting of many cultures including western song form and harmonies. In that case there is definitely a one to the Samba form.
Now I have talked about this to Jovi Joviniano, Jakare, Tiago At Rio Maracatu, Dom Chacal, and dozens of other less known professional percussionist in Rio ( home of the Samba) and they all agree with me.

Show me one song(not written by gringos) with the one on the other side. Just one ! I maintain that this very classical drum break in the first example is typical and always indicate the one. As you know percussion is language and one can recognise phrases and vocabulary if you know the culture. I hear and play Samba everyday and learned from the masters ; partido alto as far as I have ever seen is always played on the same side.
Now I am prepared to be proven wrong with one example, that is all it takes. A clear one, with a song, since you find that other one ambiguous.

Anyway I mean all that in the friendliest manner, and in the pursuit of knowledge and sharing what we have learned.

Um abraço meu irmaoes!

Tone

[congamyk]

^ Hi Tone, do you have a youtube account with videos?

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Tone,
I too am willing to be convinced. I thought the topic at the moment was percussion without "western song form and harmonies" though. I am talking about the rhythm without a harmonic element. As soon as a harmonic progression is added on top, the whole thing changes because harmony trumps rhythm every time. I am not addressing which side of clave the samba songs are on.

On that instrumental partido alto piece you cited a rhythmic accent, not a chord progression as the determinant of "one". That is what I’m taking issue with. I own a copy of O BATUQUE CARICOA (The Rio de Janeiro’s Samba Schools Drum Sections) by Mestre Odilon Costa and Guilherme Concalves. In that book the parts are consistently written with the "one" on what we would call the "three-side of clave". So, I disagree with your statement that "The clave is a continuous concept which is useless to try to define with a one or even a beginning or an end." The patterns are written in that book very precisely. "One" is consistent with what I am asserting here. If they wrote the songs in that book however, I imagine that they would have written the songs as the prime referent, rather than "clave". In that case, the rhythmic progression would have been subordinate to the harmonic progression, as it should be.
-David

[Joseph]

Interesting discussion here…as usual, I’m in over my head...but here goes anyway…

First off, that partido alto “Canto de Ubirantan”: can’t get enough of that!
That is some infectiously dance-able stuff…..OPA!

I must confess I can’t hear the clave in that piece…and I must have listened to it 20 times in a row…maybe I was too busy dancing.

Seriously though, is the clave “implied” in that piece, and/or in Brasilian styles in general?
I can certainly tap a clave beat along with the piece and fit right in to rhythm, but clave (to me) in this piece is not as prominent and outwardly stated as in many Cuban styles.

Also, I have heard of a “Bossa Clave”, a slight variation of Son clave

Son Clave
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a
X o o X o o X o o o X o X o o o

Bossa Clave
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a
X o o X o o X o o o X o o X o o

Bossa clave sounds a bit strange when played unaccompanied…it doesn’t seem to “resolve” like a son clave cycle, but put it a rhythmic context like the partido alto mentioned above, and it swings!.... and seems to fit into the fabric of the piece better than the son clave.

My question:
Is Bossa Clave (or whatever it is properly known as) the predominant Brasilian clave reference, when speaking of clave in Brasilian styles, or just one of the numerous variations of clave, which are used interchangeably in different Brasilian styles?

Is there such a thing as a Rumba Bossa Clave?

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a
X o o X o o o X o o X o o X o o

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Joseph,
Those are all great questions! In Cuban popular music the term "clave" is sometimes used to mean the governing principle of the entire rhythmic matrix, not just the particular five-stroke pattern. For the sake of our discussion, that’s how I am using the term here. In that context, then yes, clave is implied like you say.

It doesn’t matter what binary timeline pattern you are talking about – batucada tamborim, afoxe agogo, 12 bell, rumba clave, conga bell, mambo bell, etc., they all represent the same governing principle. What we call son clave just happens to be the most straight forward iconic and theoretic model of that principle. Son clave is a convenient pattern for understanding samba for example. In fact, "son clave" has been used as a tamborim pattern in batucada.

The tamborim player on "Canto de Ubirantan" is jamming, but this is the basic part he is playing off of:


X||oXoXoXXoXoXoXooX|| tamborim
||XooXooXoooXoXooo|| clave

Clave is written below for reference (size 12 courier font will align the patterns). The tamborim pattern’s alignment with clave is consistent with similar patterns. By the way, I go into considerable detail on this topic in the chapter "Binary Patterns" of my upcoming book "The Clave Matrix" (due out this Aug).

To me, son clave is a much better reference for samba than the bossa nova pattern. However, as far as I know (and I’m sure Tone can speak to this), the specific timeline patterns of the rhythms as opposed to son clave are typically used for reference in Brazilian music. The practice of using the same timeline (clave) for all kinds of music is a uniquely Cuban practice.

According to Bobby Sanabria, Antonio Carlos Jobim created the bossa nova stick pattern as a rhythmic motif and did not consider it a "clave". The term "bossa nova clave" or "Brazilian clave" seem to be terms that NYC-based salsa musicians mistakenly applied to the bossa nova snare rim pattern.

I have not heard of a "rumba bossa nova clave", but there’s no reason why you couldn’t use it. Incidentally, the rumba clave pattern has been used increasingly in batucada and samba reggae, most likely a Cuban influence.
-David

[Tone]

As far as I know, there is no clave used in traditional samba, eventhough it has been added in more recent versions.
The son clave usually fits the Samba quite well, but to me the partido time key is what informs all the ryhtmic placement of the music. Not only the percussion, the cavaquinho for examle is very close to the partido and really plays around with it.
As far I am concerned, proper samba, always has the partido implied even if it is not played ( like in cuban marcha based ryhtms). It really fills the role of the clave as it is gives the rhyhtmic key to the music. Also it implies this tension and release that you aso find in clave. But here it is a lot trickier as it sits across the bars. This is what most foreigners don't understand, the partido is shifted and creates this amazing tension with the music ( always is the direction I mentioned hence the lenghty discussion).

You can sometimes hear son clave played in the Candomble, also the candomble uses a lot of the ewe bell but the other way around from the cubans. x.x.x.xx.x.x

I was told by old Sambistas that the bossa nova rhythm was created like this because white rich folks from Zona Sul didn't actually understand Samba and did this watered down version. You have to understand that as usual music is a thing created in a time and a place which includes all the social and racial tensions of the time. Today you will hardly ever hear bossa nova played in Rio (only in tourists joints) while the Samba is going very strong. Even within Samba there is quite a distinction between the samba pretta ( the black Samba) and Samba do branco (white Samba). The black Samba which you will hear in the favellas and suburbs is much more rhytmical, strong and feisty ; while the withe samba of Lapa is a much softer affair. I guess you have guessed which one I prefer...

But don't get me wrong I love bossa nova. Tom Jobim is probably one the very best song writers who ever lived. Fabulous harmonies and melodies on par with the Beatles and Bob Marley for universal appeal. Plus he managed to be sung the world over with really advanced jazz harmonies, melodies and rhythmic figures. His songs sound obvious but there are anything but. Genius!

I hope that sheds a bit of light on the subject.

Peace and out

Tone

[davidpenalosa]

Tone:
>>The partido time key is what informs all the ryhtmic placement of the music. Not only the percussion, the cavaquinho for example is very close to the partido and really plays around with it<<

Hi Tone,
I agree. I was not suggesting that son clave is what sambistas use as a guide-pattern (other than its incidental use as a tamborim part). You can use it though. I said in post #664:

‘[T]he term "clave" is sometimes used to mean the governing principle of the entire rhythmic matrix, not just the particular five-stroke pattern. For the sake of our discussion, that’s how I am using the term here.’

Instead of using the Cuban term "clave" I should have just said "governing principle". I’ll use "governing principle" for this post so that there is no misunderstanding. I think my problem was that I kept going back and forth between using the term "clave" as a general concept and as the name of a specific pattern. That makes reading my posts more difficult I’m sure. Sorry about that.

I also said in that post:

"It doesn’t matter what binary timeline pattern you are talking about – batucada tamborim, afoxe agogo, 12 bell, rumba clave, conga bell, mambo bell, etc., they all represent the same governing principle."

The governing principle is often expressed in an offbeat/on-beat motif - either three offbeats with four on-beats, or four offbeats with three on-beats. Partido alto is based on a three offbeat/four on-beat motif:

|.X..X.X.X.X..X.X| basic partido alto

The Cuban conga de comparsa bell pattern is also based on this motif:

|.X..X.X.X.X..X.X| three offbeat/four on-beat motif
|.XX.X.X.X.X.XX.X| conga de comparsa bell

The Cubans used to play the son clave with the conga bell:

|.XX.X.X.X.X.XX.X| conga de comparsa bell
|X..X..X...X.X...| son clave

Now they play rumba clave with it:

|.XX.X.X.X.X.XX.X| conga de comparsa bell
|X..X...X..X.X...| rumba clave

Son clave has a more straight-forward relationship to the bell, but all of these patterns represent the same governing principle.

The relationship between the four offbeat/three on-beat motif and son clave is rather abstract.

|.X..X.X.X.X..X.X| three offbeat/four on-beat motif
|X..X..X...X.X...| clave

You said that the partido alto pattern is "shifted". I think I know what you mean. I think you mean that it’s more common to have the three offbeats contained within what we call the "three-side" and the four on-beats contained within what we call the "two-side".

|.X.X.X..X.X.X.X.| three offbeat/four on-beat motif B
|X..X..X...X.X...| clave

Motif B is the basis of the Brazilian afoxe bell pattern

|.X.X.X..X.X.X.X.| three offbeat/four on-beat motif B
|XX.X.XX.X.X.X.X.| afoxe bell pattern


As always, size 12 courier font will properly align the patterns.

By the way, I have Brazilian Candomble records from the 70’s where a combination of "son" and "rumba" clave is played on the bell:

|X..X..XX..X.X...|

- and plenty examples of the more common 12 bell as well:

|X.X.XX.X.X.X|

It must be a blast to be playing samba in Rio!
-David

[Tone]

All fascinating stuff.

Governing principle is a good term but maybe a bit abstract. Being a classical and Berklee trained harmoninc instrument musician orginally I find the term Rhythmic key (which I didn't invent) very useful. For me it describes quit well a concept which is quite foreign to western music principles yet makes it quite understandable.
In the same way that a key in harmony describes the more important notes, the ones that you will tend to use more and land on to especially at important moments, but not exclusively, allowing the use of any other notes for approaches, passages, embellishments,...
I find the clave, as a rhytmic concept, quite similar in the realm of time. Any way it helped me understand it.
The clave concept is way of mapping time, giving an agreed shape that all players can use as a reference. But it shouldn't be understood as a straight jacket of course.
Anyway you are the one writing a book about it!

That's exactly what I meant by the shift. If you play the partido alto on its own, most people will hear it as two cells of three and four or four and three. But when applied to music it is shifted by one beat and that it is the main reason that a lot of people find it very hard to grasp (even accomplished percusionists!)

Playing Samba in Rio is a blast and a half, like rumba en la calle in Havana. Nothing can replace that! You start feeling it and understanding it in a very different fashion. I was playing in this pagode last week end where this old fat woman was playing very groovy tantan. I was playing partido alto on the pandeiro doing quite a few variation and fills. Trying to keep it together without getting to carried away with old style Sambistas. I was so pleased when at the end she pointed to me talking to the rest of the band saying : "Ele sabe, ele sabe as coisas" = " He knows, he knows the stuff.
I think it is exactly what our discussion was about. Despite the fact that I was improvising I was using the right vocabulary inside that invisible map, following the invisible curves of the music. The study and work is beginning to pay off.

There are also plenty of other opportunities in Rio, I sometimes play with those very very groovy rumba group of friends from all over south america, in which ( very rare things) some of the best Brazilian percussionists in Rio really know their Rumba. I have hard some pretty horrible stuff in other circumstances.
Yesterday I joined this Carnaval group lead and mainly staffed by the members of sokoro consongo, where we'll play stuff from the whole Spanish speaking South America (from Cumbia to Merengue). There were three congas two Colombian drums which sound a bit like Djembes, snare drum, two bombos, guiro, a 8 strong horn section, singers... By the end of the rehearsal outside at largo do curvelo in Santa Teresa we had a big and dancing crowd. Playing in the street, and outside in general is really where the percussion belongs!

Come and visit some times.

All the best

Tone

[davidpenalosa]

Tone,
Thanks for sharing your experiences in Rio. It definitely sounds like a lot of fun. I like your term "rhythmic key". It's very close to a term I use - "key pattern", a general term I use for all two-celled guide patterns.
-David

[Joseph]

David and Tone

Thanks for all the great discussion
Governing principle or Rhythmic Key

The governing principle is often expressed in an offbeat/on-beat motif - either three offbeats with four on-beats, or four offbeats with three on-beat

The clave concept is way of mapping time, giving an agreed shape that all players can use as a reference. But it shouldn't be understood as a straight jacket of course.
....using the right vocabulary inside that invisible map, following the invisible curves of the music.

...so well stated.
Not being born into the tradition,(and not living in a great percussion place like Rio or SanFran area) it is theoretical discussions like the above that have really helped me begin to “get it”.

Even within Samba there is quite a distinction between the samba pretta ( the black Samba) and Samba do branco (white Samba). The black Samba which you will hear in the favellas and suburbs is much more rhytmical, strong and feisty ; while the withe samba of Lapa is a much softer affair. I guess you have guessed which one I prefer...”

I recently read “Arsenio Rodriquez and the Transnational Flows of Latin Popular Music” by David F. Garcia

He devotes an entire chapter to a very similar distinction in Cuban music in the 1940's as Arsenio was developing his style, which came to be known as “Negro y Macho”

From the book: …”there were two styles, a simple style and an afro style. Arsenio began to play in an afro style, which was more difficult and had more sabor (flavor,feel).”

Estilo Negro:Black,Modern, progressive,Masculine, Difficult, Slow, Sonero
Estilo Blanco:White, Passe’, Feminine / small sound, Simple, Fast, Guarachero

“Although these terms signified the racial and class background of groups audiences as well as notions of musical authenticity, complexity, and progressiveness,actual musical features such as tempo and, most important, sonic power and fullness also indexed musical blackness and masculinity”

Different diasporic societies/cultures, great similarities in the nature of musical evolution/development.

Slightly OT

I love when writers are able to craft the words that describe the essence of music and/or musical experience.

Here is another quote from the book.
Written by Fernando Ortiz (a Cuban Musicologist, I believe) in 1951,giving his own interpretation of the essence of the Mambo

"It is all nothing more than a link of lines coordinated in a weave that is composed of the spontaneity of each rhythm, individually played to each musician’s whim, but whose threads are crossed and interlaced into one warp...Although arbitrary and capricious, there is no "anarchy" or "lack of order", but rather a wonderful concert of individual freedoms taken to the maximum within a minimal but unshakable structural arrangement….Also this occurs only…in that precise paroxysmal moment characteristic of musica afrocubana."

Nails it...as far as I'm concerned

...and now back to our Topic....

~Joseph

[bongo]

I too have been working on Samba, and wondered what the defining element is that makes a Samba Samba.

Having a bass pedal on a djun djun does a good substitute for the surdo. Additionally I have been working a wood log with the left foot to play the partido alto.

Airto's book 'The Spirit of Percussion' notates the 4 'on beats' of the partido alto as split between two measures.
Using 'x' and '.' as eight notes in a two measure phrase, it looks as follows;
4/4 x.x..x.x I .x..x.x. I

It starts with two beats on, then three off, then followed by two on and repeat. This makes the four 'on beats' cross the bar, which might confuse the listener as to where the one falls.

David and Tone, does this jive with your understanding of it?

[CongaTick]

Tone, no problem. At 66, patience is the one virtue I do possess , and thank you for your effort in this area and the site referrals. Very helpful in understanding the context, structure and variation possibilities.

[Isaac]

Why so many Sambas ?
Look at the size of Brasil !
It's almost the same land mass as the USA.
There are so many regional styles, and keep in mind,
each region plays the other's regional styles but in their
own local way...not to mention many
different drum families. You have many blends of
Africa, Native Indian, Iberian, American swing & jazz, Soul,
and let's not forget the Beatles! They've slowly cooked
all of that into many fine flavored songs & dances.
It's a gold mine of rhythms which all here
should get more familiar with. You'll be very happy
you did.

ISAAC

[TONE74]

I agree. Even though I don't think its about size. It is definitely the next country I want to explore as far as rhythms. I'm trying to learn my own stuff which seems to be endless also. So lets say I want to learn just one samba but I want it to be the baddest pattern I can learn on congas (providing I can pull it off ) don't need it to be fast I'm more into funky and swing so it can be simple.

What do you guys recommend as far as a samba pattern ?

[congamyk]

An interesting "samba" from youtube. It sounds like a timba derivative to my ears.
Just the slightest inflection can really transform a rhythm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D0A72UXmjw