Too many Sambas

[davidpenalosa]

Conga Tick,
I don’t have the technology to fulfill your request. Tone says he has something in the works though and I know that Johnny Conga has a webcam enabling him to give lessons on-line. It sounds like what you need is a good teacher.

A word about "feel" and "swing". Don’t worry, just get the patterns first. Feel comes later.

Here is the R-L hand sequence of the samba de roda part:
||.S.SO..OO..S.O.O||

||RLRLRLRLRLRLRLRL||

Use touches or "ghost notes" in between the slaps and opens.

Here is the R-L hand sequence of the jazz samba on two congas that replicates the surdo:
o||o.SOOS.oo.SOOS.o||

L||R.LRRL.LR.LRRL.L||

This part is similar to the jazz samba bass and kick drum pattern.

-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1194559360

[Tone]

David, I was re-reading your post and realised there might be a typo in your partido alto ( I know you know it inside out)

it should be

X.X||.X.X..X.X.X..X.X||

I believe that is the most basic version although we could fill books with the variations the Brazilians came up with.

peace

[davidpenalosa]

Really? You know that I started the pattern on what we call the three-side right? Well, you are the one writing from Rio, not me.
-David

[Tone]

if you look you will see that it makes more sense with the cabula and the tambourim, they are actually all pretty much the same.

The way I have written it, the opening double bar would be on the one of the music.

I certainly do not want to direspect you but I think you may be wrong on this one.
All the parts start with ||.X.X and all have a strong beat on the one of the next 2/4 bar .x.x..x.X.x..x.x.

The traditional samba starts (like your tambourim) on the second half of the 4 part. Eventhough you would be talking chinese to a sambista when saying that of course!

correctr me if I am wrong

peace

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Tone,
No disrespect taken in any way. I like to "correct" people in these forums, but I often end up getting corrected myself in the process.

I learned batucada from some very good teachers, but also from Brazilian batucada records from the 70’s and 80’s. Therefore, my concepts are in large part, grounded in styles several decades old. This may be a generational difference, I don’t know. I’d like to hear a recording with this pattern that you have written. If you can download mp3’s, I’ll send you a vintage partido alto to show you what I’m hearing.

Here’s my idea of the basic partido alto motif, taking into account the high-low melody and the starting point of the pattern.

L.L.||L.H..L.L.H..L.L.||

L = low tone
H = high tone

This is the basic partido alto melodic motif I’ve heard it on pandeiro, agogo and cuica.
-David

[Tone]

He David,

that is exactly it. No problems.
It was a typo after all.

Check your first post of partido alto it was different. You had written: ||.x..x instead of ||.x.x

At least you know someone is actually reading your posts!

[davidpenalosa]

Tone,
I'm confused. Besides adding the element of the high and low tones, the only difference between the two ways is where I began the pattern. Although I don't usually consider it proper in a batucada context, I'll explain this in terms of Cuban-style popular music in the hope that I can clear this up. The first time I wrote the partido alto pattern in "3-2" and the second time I wrote it in "2-3". It's the same pattern, just written in different clave sequences. Does that make sense?
-David

[Tone]

I see what you mean David. You are right, you had simply written the other way around and of course it is just as correct.

It is just that it was kind of defeating the point of your briliiant demonstration with the origin from cabula as you were writing it the opposite way that you had wrote cabula, therefore making it really hard for people to see the connection between the two.
The way you had cabula was 4/3, the tambourim was 4/3 and then the partido was 3/4.
If I may re-present your presentation I think it would make more obvious sense if you wrote it like this :

X||.X.X.XX.X.XX.X.X|| cabula bell pattern

X||.X.X.XX.X.X.XX.X|| samba tamborim patern

This is also similar to the basic partido alto motif

X||.X.X..X.X.X..X.X||

then, they all line up very neatly!

I don't want to sound pedantic, just trying to help people understand. I hope you don't mind.

Peace

[guarachon63]

I confess I can't offer much on the details about what you guys are talking about, but I do love partido alto. Maybe it would help if we could stream musical examples.

Here is one of my favorite all-time partido altos,"Vivo Isolado do Mundo / Amor não é brinquedo" by Candeia, from his classic album "Axé." Despite not having the improvisational call-and-response aspect, I have always considered this track to be a masterpiece of the genre.

Enjoy!

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Tone,
I don’t mind at all, but with all due respect, your notation of partido alto is in an incorrect relationship with the other two patterns. Below I’ve written all three patterns against clave in the hope that it will clear this up. I’m using clave as a conceptual aid and am not implying that it’s nessesarily a requisite part (although it has been used as a tamborim pattern in batucada).


||X..X..X...X.X...|| clave
X||.X.X.XX.X.XX.X.X|| cabula bell pattern

||X..X..X...X.X...|| clave
X||.X.X.XX.X.X.XX.X|| samba tamborim patern

||X..X..X...X.X...|| clave
X.X.X.X..X.X||.X..X.X.X.X..X.X|| partido alto

If you convert my "chart" to size 12 courier font, all the patterns will properly align.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1194725815

[bongosnotbombs]

For what it's worth I thought I would post these Samba Ijexa and
Bahia, I got them from a local samba group here in SF.

Anyways, I don't play in an escole d' samba, I got these as kind of a workout for tones and slaps and quinto and because I love brazilian music.

Recently I started adapting these to a two drum pattern where I use a low drum to keep the 1 and the 3 kind of like a surdo and then play the patterns as best I can with the higher drum. It's kind of a "work in progress".

I'm also adapting it in a similar manner on the bongos. 1 and 3 on the hembra and then using macho open tones and the high pitch manoteo strike to emulate the open and slap tones respectively...also a work in progress..



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1194758315

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... _Ijexa.jpg

[bongosnotbombs]

bahia

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... _Bahia.jpg

[Tone]

David,

maybe I am going crazy and missing the whole thing but it seems to me that once again you are proving the opposite of your point.

In using the clave analogy what matters are the bombo note (= tension) and the last note of the clave ( = release and resolution) you will notice that in the way you write your partido the most important bombo is empty. I will put bars for the beats for legibility.
||...X|....|..X.|....|| clave, tension and release
||.x..|x.x.|x.X.|.x.x|| your partido, no bombo!
||.x.X|..x.|x.X.|.x.x|| mine
||.x.X|.x.|x.Xx|.x.x||cabula
||.x.X|.xx.|x.X.|xx.x||tamburim

I thought the way I showed all three rhythms aligned before was pretty conclusive as well, but it didn't convince you so I supect this won't either.

So lets have a look at that tune provided by guarachon 63.
the pattern is:
||xx.X|x.x.|x.X.|xx.x| same thing again and it should be!

Now my last and of course not highly logical point is that I know that's the way it is. If you cut the partido alto in the most basic way: 4 off beats and three down beats. It starts with the last two off beats of the 4 then the three down and then the first 2 off beats of the four. As you know the pattern is displaced in relation to the measure. The group of 4 is bridged over the bar change.

It goes like this and that is the way the 10 different pagode bands I saw friday night in Lapa played it too :
||.x.x|..x.|x.x.|.x.x||
||.3.4|..1.|2.3.|.1.2||
which strangely enough is exactly what you had written in that form :
L.L.||L.H..L.L.H..L.L.|| same thing!!!! but not the same as the partitdo you wrote in your first post:
X.X||.X..X.X.X.X..X.X|| the fourth and crucial x is late!!! It should be .x.x. Which also messes up with the grouping because the middle group is a group of four instead of three and the turn around group is three instead of four.
Contrary to Cuban clave, partitdo is always in the same direction.

Any way I can't explain it better, come to Rio and we'll have some fun and caipirinhas!!

peace my brother

[davidpenalosa]

Tone: >>In using the clave analogy what matters are the bombo note (= tension) and the last note of the clave ( = release and resolution) you will notice that in the way you write your partido the most important bombo is empty. I will put bars for the beats for legibility.
||...X|....|..X.|....|| clave, tension and release<<

Hi Tone,
No doubt this would be easier to do in person, playing the parts instead of writing about them. Thanks for sticking with me. You said that "the bombo note (= tension) and the last note of the clave ( = release and resolution)". In your example above you do show bombo, but you don’t show "the last (5th) note of the clave", you show the 4th note. I show the strokes you notated in caps.
||x..X|..x.|..X.|x...||

>>||.x..|x.x.|x.X.|.x.x|| your partido, no bombo!<<

Yes, the iconic partido alto pattern I wrote does not contain bombo.

>>||.x.X|..x.|x.X.|.x.x|| mine<<

You have written a different pattern than I have. Therein lies at least part of the reason for our disagreement. Again, if you are able to receive mp3s, I will happily email you recorded examples of the pattern I have written, which is clearly different than the one you have written. My understanding of batucada patterns was informed by Brazilian musicians and Brazilian records of the 70’s and 80’s. I have a pretty hefty collection of recorded music from that era that corroborates what I’m saying. I cannot speak to what is being played in Rio now, but it would seem that they no longer play the pattern I wrote. Otherwise, I expect that you would have recognized it.

>>||.x.X|.xx.|x.X.|xx.x|| tamburim<<

This is the same tamborim pattern I am familiar with though.

>>Now my last and of course not highly logical point is that I know that's the way it is. If you cut the partido alto in the most basic way: 4 off beats and three down beats.

The pattern I wrote has 3 off-beats and 4 on-beats. We are talking about different patterns, although they are based on the same general off-beat/on-beat motif.

>>Contrary to Cuban clave, partitdo is always in the same direction. <<

Historically I have not found this to be the case. The parts entered differently in the 70’s than they did in the early 90’s. All the escolas did 2-3 songs and then at one point they all started doing 3-2 songs.

>>…come to Rio and we'll have some fun and caipirinhas!!<<

Thanks so much for the invite. I wish I could join you.
-David

[Diceman]

Tone and David,

Great discourse, and very interesting stuff.
If you cant make it David, I'll go and answer the call of the caipirinha
Hope all is well, Tone.

suave
Diceman