Too many Sambas

[guarachon63]

I am posting David's musical examples, hopefully this will be of some help.

Partido Alto from Roberto Pittigianis "Batucada #4" LP

Partido Alto - Jazz/Samba version by Airto

These patterns are different from the one I posted by Candeia earlier, but he used them both in the 1970's.

Just for reference here is the Cabula bell pattern example:

Pomba Gira from Sergio Mendes "Primal Roots" CD.



Edited By guarachon63 on 1194899841

[davidpenalosa]

Thanks for posting that. listening to the patterns is a lot easier and way more enjoyable than dealing with those tedious "X's". Now you can all hear what I'm talking about.
-David

[Tone]

Hey David,

you 're right about the clave of course, I got mixed up with those bloody xxxx and .....I wish there was a simple program or even a thing part of the forum to write music on a pentagram with notes. Still not ideal but more musical.

You are right about the samba playing clave both ways but as far as I know partido alto ( as a genre) is always in that direction, send me an example to the contrary I would be curious to hear it.

All I was trying to say is to make the connection with cabula to describe the origins of samba, the example of partido should be the other way to match the cabula. Now you can always play it the other way around and as you mentioned it has been done a lot too.
But to understand the connection between cabula and partido, I think it would be easier if they were written in the same direction.

Anyway, I kind of lost track now.

Thanks too to guarachon I didn't know that Pomba Gira track is it really Sergio Mendes??? Got to check that primal roots album...

Thanks all for the discussion.

Diceman get your ass down to Rio. I will send you an email shortly.

peace

[Tone]

Actually I may as well show this to everybody...
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Special deals for percussionists!!!

someone 's got to have the dream life!


www.casabeleza.net

check it out

[davidpenalosa]

I didn't know that Pomba Gira track is it really Sergio Mendes??? Got to check that primal roots album...

Yeah. Surprisingly, Sergio recorded some cool folkloric pieces in 1977. Side B of Primal Roots consists of one long, loose jazz-samba jam.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1194909678

[davidpenalosa]

...as far as I know partido alto ( as a genre) is always in that direction, send me an example to the contrary I would be curious to hear it.

On the folkloric partido alto cut, the pandeiro enters exactly like I wrote the pattern the first time, on the "e" (offbeat) after beat 1. In other words, right after the downbeat of the three-side.

1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a

On the Airto cut, the traps enter on the three offbeats, but the bass enters with the four on-beats.
-David

[guarachon63]

Posting on behalf of David this track demonstrating conga in Samba de Roda:

Canto de Ubiratan


Also by Sergio Mendes from "Primal Roots"

[davidpenalosa]

samba de roda-style conga in batucada. Thanks.
-David

[Tone]

Hey David and all who made this far in the post,

what 's up? I hope you are keeping well.
I have been keeping our conversation in the back of my mind for a while, every time I hear or play a new Samba.
I am pretty sure now that the partido is always played in the same direction in relation to the musical bar. It is always played as in similar fashion to Kabula:
.x.x..x.x.x..x.x.
It very ofently enters on the other side, but in relation to the music it is always played like I wrote.
If you have an example to the contrary I would be very curious to hear it, and it would be very rare indeed.
I don't want to be pedantic about it but I think it is actually a very important thing to understand with Samba. When the partido enters as a pick up on the other side it can be very confusing for people to understand how it all works. But that is what makes Samba unique : the emphasis on the strong beat of the second bar in a cycle of two 2/4 bars and the feeling of dislacement that the partido adds.

Abraço

Tone

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Tone,
Did you listen to the examples guarachon63 posted (see above)? How do you hear those partido alto patterns entering the rhythm?
-David

[Tone]

Hi David,

yes I listened to the tunes, like I said often happens, it enters on the "3" side but the 1 of the music is on the other side. It is very obvious on the second example with harmonies, but also on the first one where the drums break (twice in the tune) ends with a big splash on the opposite side to where the tune started.
I am really a 100% sure now, the partido instruments can enter on either side ( pandeiro, tambourim, cuica,..., you name it) but the 1 of the tune is always on the same side, and that is half way through the 4 side.
In other words the partido often starts as a pick up one 2/4 bar ahead, but the music 1 comes on the second bar.
In about as many example the partido starts with the 1 of the music.

Those examples and 100s I could post confirm what I said.

I am not trying to be desperately right, but I think it is a very important thing to understand a bout the Samba, pagode , partido, roda,...

Another example that can throw people is how the surdo almost always anticipate the first bar of the tune or chorus, still the one comes after!

got to go for churrascaria....
peace

tone

[davidpenalosa]

it enters on the "3" side but the 1 of the music is on the other side.

Hi Tone,
Since that batucada piece is instrumental with no harmonic progression, what rhythmic element is signifying "one" for you?
-David

[Tone]

Like I said , if you wait till the second half there are two very obvious drum breaks with big splash cymbal which clearly sound like a 1 to me.

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Tone,
A rhythmic accent (big splash cymbal) is not an indicator of "one" in African-based rhythms like samba. The concept of an accent on "one", with its accompanying theory of "strong beats" and "weak beats" applies to European-based rhythm.

Absent of a harmonic progression, percussion-based music such as samba is structured around what’s called a "timeline", "phrasing referent", "guide pattern", or bell pattern; in other words – what the Cubans call "clave". I have heard many people say that "clave is the key". I have never heard anyone say that "the accent" is the key, or the "on-beat emphasis is the key".

In 4/4 African-based rhythms "one" is often the least accented pulse in the whole cycle. Clave is one of the most archetypal timeline patterns, and one that I imagine everyone reading this thread is familiar with, so I’ll use it as an example. The clave pattern has two distinct rhythmically opposed cells; the first is antecedent and the second is consequent. In 4/4 time the offbeat cell is always the antecedent and the on-beat cell is always consequent. The rhythm does not move in a consequent (on-beat)/antecedent sequence.

I disagree with your determinant of "one", but I understand that you feel it that way. You are not alone. This is a widespread misunderstanding (oops, now I sound like "Dr." Z).
-David

[Congadelica]

No Dave you dont sound like DrZ at all .
You just put it all inplace for me bro Thanks Ive been trying to understand this placement of the one , you have now confirmed which I had feel for . so I am entering in the correc place .