Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby zwar » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:22 pm

in westafrica the son clave (3-2) is identically the same as the highlife bell pattern that is used in most of the non-ritual music of the ga, ewe, and akan people. i never heared a bell pattern similar to rumba clave (neither 3-2 nor 2-3) being played originally in that part of africa. the most common yoruba highlife bell pattern does contain the strokes of rumba clave, (|| X . . X . . x X | . . X . X . . x ||), but allways starts with the 3side.
at all, those patterns are just bell patterns, important to keep the music together (you will hear the bell clearly, no matter how loud the music is), but in no case structuring the music by itself.

maybe the reason for the importance of clave structur in latin music is caused by the prohibition of iron things for slaves during the time of slavery. if you have no iron bell loud enough to be heard, people have to imagine the bell pattern...
just an idea.

greetings

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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:52 pm

zwar wrote:i never heared a bell pattern similar to rumba clave (neither 3-2 nor 2-3) being played originally in that part of africa.zwar


Zwar,
Nearly all key patterns (bell patterns, code patterns, guide patterns, or whatever you choose to call them) are interrelated and serve the same function, which is to guide members of the ensemble by conveying the structural core of the rhythm in a condensed and concentrated form. The function of these patterns in Africa and Cuba is the same.

The three most common key patterns used in Afro-Cuban music and African music south of the Sahara are what we call the “6/8 bell”, “son clave” and “rumba clave.” A.M. Jones, a pioneer in the study of sub-Saharan music says all three are “basically one and the same pattern”, which is a topic for another time.

The pattern we call “rumba clave” is found within a large geographic belt spanning west, central and east Africa. I cite examples in my upcoming book. In West Africa for instance, what we call “rumba clave” is used by The Ewe, Yoruba and Ibo. I’m certain that use of the pattern is not limited to these ethnic groups. This is just what I’ve found through checking out the research of others.
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby windhorse » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:49 pm

davidpenalosa wrote:
zwar wrote:i never heared a bell pattern similar to rumba clave (neither 3-2 nor 2-3) being played originally in that part of africa.zwar


The pattern we call “rumba clave” is found within a large geographic belt spanning west, central and east Africa. I cite examples in my upcoming book. In West Africa for instance, what we call “rumba clave” is used by The Ewe, Yoruba and Ibo. I’m certain that use of the pattern is not limited to these ethnic groups. This is just what I’ve found through checking out the research of others.
-David


What?? This is new news to me! Didn't I hear that it was a Cuban invention that began somewhere in the 40-50s? I don't know,, I'm getting old,, maybe my memory's fading, but I could have sworn that it was a widely held belief that Rumba clave had its origins in Cuba!!
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:06 pm

windhorse wrote: I could have sworn that it was a widely held belief that Rumba clave had its origins in Cuba!!


Dave,
I can tell you from my research that a lot of what has been said and written about the origins of the patterns we call "son clave" and "rumba clave" is wrong, based upon a Cuban-centric view and plain guesswork. In other words, none of those people bothered to investigate African music. The problem has been that a lot of misunderstandings have been repeated down through the decades. The information is readily available though at your public library (the research goes back to 1920), or more directly—from observing and listening to African music.

In regards to the 40s and 50s, this was the era in Cuba when the concept of clave reached its zenith in Cuban popular music. It was also the time when rumba recordings with rumba clave were first made. Perhaps this is what you are thinking of?
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby windhorse » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:14 pm

Thank you David,
Yes, that's probably it, that I had heard this was the first time that rumba clave showed up in recordings... I then used it to support my own hypothesis about Cuban origins.
This is the first time I heard of African origins, and it totally changes my own misconceptions..
Very interesting! Thanks for the lesson!
Dave
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby Quinto Governor II » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:57 am

My theory is that the, universal to Africa, so to speak, pattern in question, evolved from clapping over melodic songs. Is there anything in your research David, to support this theory? This is one of the reasons, its hard for me to accept the notion, of clave being paramount over the music itself. Forward, reverse, and crossing clave seems to be illogical concepts, if all the patterns are of the same nature. After all, they all span the same time length and simply represent different ways of syncopating this particular 2 bar melodic structure. If playing tumbao on a particular side of the clave does not sound right, it simply means that ones orientation is not consistent with what is being played. Did not the first syncopated music feel wrong, to the western trained ear, or standard of that time?
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby windhorse » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:13 am

I agree with everything you said, Governor, and you sound like I think,,, except this..
Quinto Governor II wrote:Forward, reverse, and crossing clave seems to be illogical concepts, if all the patterns are of the same nature.

Not sure that all patterns are of the same nature, and that noticing the difference in the sidedness of clave is illogical..
I get what you were saying about the analysis of music, and you're right about having a pattern of the same length played in opposite ways is an equalizing point of view.
Sure,, but what if you notice the difference? You might then chose to do things one way or the other,,, right?
Whether one is right or not is irrelevant. But, seeing a difference means you have a choice.
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:44 am

Quinto Governor II wrote:1. ... pattern in question, evolved from clapping over melodic songs. [...] 2. Forward, reverse, and crossing clave seems to be illogical concepts, if all the patterns are of the same nature 3. ....they all span the same time


Gov.,
It sounds like you are asking about the "how" and "why" of clave. If you read the first six chapters of my book—the first 213 pages (and listen to the accompanying CDs), you will get it. If you play the music over a long enough period of time, you will get it. I don't really want to try to distill such an important and large concept to the size of this posting, but I will attempt to narrowly answer your three questions quoted above.

1. Key patterns are typically clapped, played on idiophones (bells, claves, bamboo, etc) or on high-pitched drumheads (12/8 iyesa and the bata rhythms toque arara and Agayu for example). So yes, the patterns are clapped, but is that the first way they were expressed? Perhaps. There are plenty of examples of just singing and clapping in African music.

However, there is evidence that use of the patterns we call "clave" followed the spread of early iron working in sub-Saharan Africa and therefore, the iron bell may historically be the more significant instrument in regards to key patterns. Wherever "clave" is played in Africa, the same technique of iron bell making is found. The same technique is also used in the construction of some bells in Cuba.

2. The patterns have specific alignments with each other. In one rhythm you might find the same patterns found in another rhythm, but in a different alignment; a part(s) may be in a displaced position. Though these variables may seem random or arbitrary, they are not. The logic behind the contrapuntal structure is best represented by the key pattern, the code pattern, the guide pattern—the pattern we call clave. Learning the code takes time. Clave—the code, also represents the generative principle of all the parts in the ensemble.

Syncopation is not the source of the rhythm, it is a product of the rhythm. The source of the music is cross-rhythm. Check out C.K. Ladzekpo's site (The Structure of African Rhythm):
http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/ladzekp ... lesFr.html

"The technique of cross rhythm is a simultaneous use of contrasting rhythmic patterns within the same scheme of accents or meter."—C.K. Ladzekpo

3. Let's look at the span of time involved. There two main spans. There is a two-beat cycle (a single cell) and a four-beat cycle (two cells). There are typically single celled parts combined with two-celled parts.

Hope this wasn't TMI.
-David
Last edited by davidpenalosa on Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby RitmoBoricua » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:35 pm

David,

Was not Mario Bauza the one that came-up with the idea of illustrating the clave pattern direction in 3/2 or 2/3 to help some of the Machito's AfroCuban band members way back in the day to follow the arrangements and to play correctly in clave, meaning the non-hispanic straight jazz players that were in that great band at the time. Folks born and raised listening and playing them rhytms and bell patterns probably do not look at clave in the 3/2 and 2/3 concept. I think that's the case with Brazilian music you can feel the clave in it but if you ask a Brazilian player about clave they probaly have no idea what you are talking about.
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:20 pm

RitmoBoricua wrote:Was not Mario Bauza the one that came-up with the idea of illustrating the clave pattern direction in 3/2 or 2/3 to help some of the Machito's AfroCuban band members way back in the day...[?]


According to Bobby Sanabria who played with Bauza for eight years, yes. By the way, Afro-Cuban folklorists do not relate to the 3-2/2-3 system, nor do Africans or other non-Cubans. Ironically, neither do the young band musicians in Cuba today.
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby RitmoBoricua » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:07 pm

It seems that the 3/2 and 2/3 clave concept is a “NYC” thing.
I am inclined to think that a slew of musicians are more than
happy with the 3/2 – 2/3 (Mario Bauza) clave concept. I would
think that it simplified lot of things for them, took some of the clave
mistery out of it.

When I was growing-up back home in P.R. I remember the “Jibaros”
(Rican Hicks) playing their “Musica Jibara” and knowing when somebody
was playing “Cruzado”. They did not understand the clave in the 3/2 or 2/3
concept either. They just knew. Is like the feeling for rhythm and clave was
their internal clock.

I will be on the look-out for your book no doubt you have proved to be a
very knowledgeable scholar. To me this clave thing that came from Africa is
at the core of much the music and rhythms that were developed in the Americas
and beyond. Even them Hip Hop beats today are outright clave based, I can tap
clave to most of them no problem. Take Care!
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby Quinto Governor II » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:45 am

windhorse wrote:I agree with everything you said, Governor, and you sound like I think,,, except this..
Quinto Governor II wrote:Forward, reverse, and crossing clave seems to be illogical concepts, if all the patterns are of the same nature.

Not sure that all patterns are of the same nature, and that noticing the difference in the sidedness of clave is illogical..
I get what you were saying about the analysis of music, and you're right about having a pattern of the same length played in opposite ways is an equalizing point of view.
Sure,, but what if you notice the difference? You might then chose to do things one way or the other,,, right?
Whether one is right or not is irrelevant. But, seeing a difference means you have a choice.


windhorse,
By same nature, I mean that they all span 2 bars. Is that correct? I like the way you put it, in your last 2 lines, especially; the last one - seeing either side as a choice.
David,
How does the Spanish Decima fit into this theory of the origin of clave, and how does the Decima form fit into the structure of clave? Thanks!
Yambu
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:09 am

Gov.,
I know very little about the Spanish decima. Its origins are different that that of clave, although obviously we find both in Cuban music.
-David
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby windhorse » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:20 am

Quinto Governor II wrote:
windhorse wrote:I agree with everything you said, Governor, and you sound like I think,,, except this..
Quinto Governor II wrote:Forward, reverse, and crossing clave seems to be illogical concepts, if all the patterns are of the same nature.

Not sure that all patterns are of the same nature, and that noticing the difference in the sidedness of clave is illogical..
I get what you were saying about the analysis of music, and you're right about having a pattern of the same length played in opposite ways is an equalizing point of view.
Sure,, but what if you notice the difference? You might then chose to do things one way or the other,,, right?
Whether one is right or not is irrelevant. But, seeing a difference means you have a choice.


By same nature, I mean that they all span 2 bars. Is that correct? I like the way you put it, in your last 2 lines, especially; the last one - seeing either side as a choice.

Yes, if you mean that a "bar" is 1/2 a measure of the full clave length. And you made a good point!
But, there may be other considerations besides just mathematical conciseness - like tonal progressions, or not overlapping certain parts that need to be heard separately.
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Re: Explaining Clave (Clave for Dummies)

Postby guarachon63 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:26 am

The definitive work on rumba and décima is "Décima and rumba: Iberian formalism in the heart of afro-cuban song," which can be found here. (Required reading for any rumba aficionado, IMHO.)

Though it doesn't address décima and clave per se, it points out that

"[The décima's] inherently rhythmic pattern of stressed syllables and pairs of rhymes repeated unequally yet regularly is a linguistic emulation of the continuo parts of the rumba. In this way an arcane poetic or literary device becomes another rhythmic element in the rumba gestalt."

I think the happy coincidence of décimas fitting so nicely within clave, and the various ways they can be phrased around it while still staying "in clave," is an idea worth exploring, but obviously by someone a lot more qualified than myself.
===================================
http://esquinarumbera.blogspot.com
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