Correct seating height? - for playing seated

[MichaelB]

Anyone here know what is optimal for playing congas seated?...you would think that elbows should be higher than the drums, from a gravity/fulcrum point of view, but I see pictures of old congueros who look like it's just under their chin...I guess the real deal guys like Hidalgo could play standing on their heads, but anyway.....

I have heard the translated phrase .."begging the drum" - "rogando el tambour"?..(elbows way below the drum, hands reaching up like a begging dog) described in a negative way, but that was in a djembe context.

Thanks in advance!
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Edited By MichaelB on 1197956460

[blango]

I was taught that the elbows are just below the rim, at a relaxed position (not sticking elbows out like a chicken :laugh: )

Hope that helps,

Tony

[zaragenca]

Well ergonimically there have been some congeros that ,(becouse of lack of knowledge of the physical component),have been using a wrong position,lay out or level,(in relation to the shoulders),not only the position should be right in relation to the elbows,but also in relation to the shoulders, since the whole, muscle-ligaments-bones of the upper body are going to play an important function in relation to facilitate the development of the percutive articulation which you are trying to approach.Shoulders and elbows should be in a position of relaxation,(around the lower chest should be the top part of the instrument),ergonomically speaking,...but some people have been playing lower,(for lack of better knowledge),that playing it to low put a lot of pressure in the shoulders.Dr. Zaragemca

[maelopr]

??? Say what :O ??? ???????

[blango]

I believe Arturo Rodriquez (mel bay) has a nice discussion about this in one of his books. If im not mistaken. If i am remembering the right book, it has a side picture of the correct position.

Hope that helps,

Tony

[Diceman]

I have fiddled around with the height over the years but have settled on having the top surface about 6" above my naval when sitting, but you can tilt the drum away from you to adjust edge hitting angle.

Sorry about the obvious cut and paste ??? ???

Seasonal Greetings

Diceman

[BMac]

Without permission from the masters and vintage players, I play with my elbows about two-to-three inches higher than the head of the conga, when the conga is placed flat on the floor. So my arms slope slightly downward to the head. From there, I do lean the drum forward to open up the sound. In that position, the weight of each arm is generally supported by the drum itself so my shoulders don't get tired quickly. I discovered this position by trial and error when I finally demanded heel-finger technique in my playing after years of goofing around by monkey-banging mostly tones and big open bass strikes ... you know, the kind of silly stuff you see at drum circles. One day, I discovered, with this new playing position, that I had suddenly enhanced comfort and longevity and heel-finger technique became natural and comfortable.

What I discovered, again, without any permission from those toward whom I am unworthy, is that at a higher playing position, my shoulders are relaxed and my hands are lifted more by wrist movement than by shoulder strength.

Furthermore, I can better balance and rock the drum to open and close the bottom for tonal fluctuations ... and no, I ain't lifting my congas for tonal fluctuation ... I play Mopercs ... them's heavy tubs my friend. I have one stool for my 28 inchers (Matadors, CP's), and another stool for my 30 inchers (Mopercs). Can you guess which stool is two inches taller? ... you guessed it ... my torso is the same lenght no matter what drums I play, so the stool for the Mopercs is the taller. Both stools are taller than typical house chairs and park benches. Now when I see someone sitting in a regular chair playing conga, I think to myself "man I'm glad I ain't that guy."

I never heard the phrase "begging the drum" prior to now ... but it's descriptive of the more popular playing level. I have to ask myself, is the lowered playing position somehow advantageous or have the hot players who've mastered it simply overcome a handicap? I ask myself, are many players just too absent-minded to find their own most comfortable playing height? I take that back. I don't ask myself these questions anymore ... I've answered these questions to my satisfaction. Regarding vintage posture ... I don't ever see any serious conga players strapping a conga under their shoulder and playing like you see in pictures of Chano Pozo. So, if we gonna talk like old school is the only school, why we talking 'bout sitting down at all?

In any event, if you haven't at least tried a higher playing position ... I urge you to so do. Imagine suddenly increasing your comfortable playing time from a few minutes to two hours ... without months of training at the gym. If you can imagine that, go get yourself an adjustable stool and jack that sucker up. If you don't like adjustable stools ... I don't like 'em and don't own one ... try piling phone books on a chair and experimenting to find your own comfortable height. Once you've found a preferred posture, get a tall bar stool and cut it to match the height of your pile of phone books. Sure, you could post a reply here and say your teacher told you to "beg the drum" by sitting in any old conveniently available house chair or park bench, and I could post a counter-reply reminding you that people used to think the world was flat ... or ... we could just each say "Peace to you brother, play how it suits you!"

Cheers,
BMac

P.S. You could even try my approach without even telling your teacher ... ssshhh ... I won't tell ...

P.P.S. Holy Smokes! I got on youtube looking for conga playing demos and was pleasantly surprised to find a plethora of clips. It's a great resource especially for folks like me who don't have a lot of serious conga players around to learn from ... and I gotta admit ... the hot players on youtube sit lower than my currently preferred position ... hmmm ... where's that saw ... might have to look into lowering the stool ... we'll see ... what else can I learn from those clips?



Edited By BMac on 1202165332

[martingoodson1]

Without permission from the masters and vintage players, I play with my elbows about two-to-three inches higher than the head of the conga, when the conga is placed flat on the floor. ...

problem is you can't do doubles from that position. That's what the sit up and beg position is all about.

[Diceman]

Corrrrrrect

[JohnnyConga]

Plain and simple sit at a height where your arms are exactly at 90 degrees,with hands on the drum, not up or down but even, which would put the top of the drum about 2 inches above your navel....Johnny Conga....

[OLSONGO]

Your arms should be parallel with the floor as your hands are on top of the drum. Do not slouch, back straight, and breath with you abdomen.

Paz
Olsongo

[BMac]

After I posted earlier in this thread, it occurred to me that when I lean the drum forward into my preferred playing position (away from me), my wrists are closer to a neutral position when flat on the drum head, slightly flexed above or below the lines of my forearms depending on the lean of my drum. My previous description demonstrated my setup process with the drum head defining a horizonal plane ... but I don't play it there ... I lean it forward from there ... moving it around a bit side-to-side and such ... but generally forward (away from me and toward my imaginary fans). I have a theory that my movements improve my stamina ... my muscles don't get locked up in one position for long.

In any event, having looked at clips of Hidalgo on youtube, I'm not convinced he has a precisely fixed playing height ... different clips show noticeably different playing heights relative to the drum heads. Go check it out. He does seem to vary in different heights that all have his elbows below the drum-head plane.

I can only see JohnnyConga's recommendation leading to any beg position if you lean the drum forward from his description ... assuming his description has the drum head defining a horizontal plane and is leaned forward from there to actually play it. Can you comment directly on this?

Cheers and Thanks
BMac

P.S. I was hoping somebody would jump on my comment about standed playing like you see in photos of Chano Pozo. Did old time players ever actually play like that or was that just photo-opportunity stuff? Did they play like that for long or just for a quick solo? Did those old tacked-head congas weigh much less than modern congas? You'd have to be a monster to play standing up with a modern quinto slung under one arm. On the other hand, I've got this really light weight (10.5 lbs.) quinto shell ... apparently an old school tacked head conga ... that I'm trying to restore. Is the light weight evidence of its vintage authenticity? If it takes a day and half for a chicken and a half to lay and egg and a half, how do I stretch a new skin on that old quinto shell without hardware to help stretch the skin? Is the answer different if the chicken and a half lay just an egg in just a day?



Edited By BMac on 1202166491

[burke]

I thought I saw a reference to height in the fantastic "Palm/Tip" post with regards to the Chango and Giovanni hand movement video. The point someone made was that if you look at Giovanni he is a bit below the head which ergodynamically made the movement easier (sort of pivoting off the edge).

I can't find it there (or anywhere else) ... so maybe I dreamed it ... but anyway because of the comment (or dream) I bought a lower chair and have been playing that way every since ... and lovin it.



Edited By burke on 1201968832

[blango]

People,

there is a right and wrong way to play. This is not a matter of opinion or trial and error. Its about the technique every, yes every, pro player uses.

The correct position for the arms is for the elbows to be about 2 inches below the rim. I can see Parallel to the floor, ie even with the height of the rim being workable but not ideal.

Can someone show me one pro who plays with his elbows over the rim? Video?

Hope that helps,

Tony

[BMac]

We are not ants or bees.
We can and should experiment and benefit from trial and error.
There are many right ways and many wrong ways for each of us.

I like the high playing height I've tried to describe ... the conga gods be damned!

In any event, there aren't many serious conga players in middle America where I enjoyed playing in a public park for two hours yesterday as families walked by and children came and tapped our drums. In such places of the earth, I meet beginners who have not thought at all about their playing heights ... they just sit on any available bench or log or low garden wall. They think to bring their drum ... but they don't make any particular plan for where they will sit. I'm not sure where one draws the line at "professional" ... I make a few bucks here and there but can't pay the rent with drumming money. Nonetheless, when a passerby or fellow player asks for advice having seen me play for two hours or more without any showing of fatigue, I could tell them to go to the gym or to a yoga class for a few months ... but I don't think that's at all needed for long comfortable playing.

I advise them instead to find their own ideal playing height, to carry their own stool to all playing opportunities, and to enjoy immediately increased playing time and comfort.

Cheers
BMac