Timba and Mazacote - Basic parts?

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi,

I wondered whether any percussionist who plays the style of timba would work off basic patterns?

Given an percussive orchestration of drum set, congas and timbales; how do drums and timbales share their parts? Are there fixed concepts or even basic patterns for timbales and congas, especially in the Mazacote section, given that a drumset is incorporated? The few times that I had to play that style on congas, I used to improvise something with a lot of muffled tones, based on a Bomba type of feel. On the timbales, I would be lost!

Is there any very basic figure that somebody wanted to share, without having to write a complete method?

Thanks,

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Thomas,
I asked Kevin Moore (of timba.com and author of the "Thomas Cruz Conga Method" books) about this. He said that each timba band has a variety of masacote gears (sections often including breakdowns) and it differs from band to band. He suggested you check out the "Thomas Cruz Conga Method Vol. 3", as it lays out the various timba gears.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi David,

thank you for checking this for me! I thought I could maybe avoid spending money for buying all these new methods that are out now, but I'm afraid I'll have to, if I want to stay on the scene as a player and as a teacher. Frankly spoken, I need the information for my teaching more then for my playing. I have 3 timba CDs, and I'm not really a great big fan of this style, but I feel I have to know what's going on there. None of these CDs contain an extended mazacote section the way it's done live. That's why I thought I could clear this over the forum.

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Thomas,
I like timba, but I have not had to learn the various sections in detail. I have been able to make up my own arragenents pretty much. From exstensive talks with Kevin Moore I can tell you that each band has quite a complicated collection of (what Kevin calls) "gears". There's no one formula alas. Vol. 3 of the Thoms Cruz book comes with a DVD of Thomas playing the various sections, so it's easy to understand the context, but not so easy playing the conga patterns.
-David

[Garvin]

Awesome thread! I've been wondering about this myself. A friend gave me a recording of Fito Renoso recently and I've been trying to figure out why what I'm hearing is so hard for me to break down in terms of arrangements. As a kit player/conguero I often find myself listening hard in contemporary music for the "formula" I have a book that touches on timba a bit, but I never put the time in. I'll go dig it up and drop the name here as well. Important point that you made (Thomas) about the need to know what's going on whether you are a fan or not. I really appreciate that as a teacher you are open to that.
david, you are a wealth of information as usual.

Peace!

[davidpenalosa]

Thanks Garvin,
Tomas Cruz Vol. 3 book covers the sections for specific songs by Paulito. You can watch Tomas play them on the DVD and then listen to the appropriate Paulito CD. Kevin Moore is working his way through an on-line "book" on timba. He will cover the complicated arrangements of the various breakdown sections (what he calls "gears"). In the mean time, you can check out what he's written so far: "Timba - Understanding Cuban Rhythms", where he basically covers the structures of Cuban popular music from the son montuno to today. He's up to the mid-80's now.

http://www.timba.com/artists/bookpre/index.asp?Page=intro.htm#toc1

[caballoballo]

I know you guys are talking about arragements, patterns,rudiments ect. Yesterday we have to play at a wedding ceremony and alternate with a band called the PVC which is a Timba Band ( we play Salsa ), it is ok but IMHO you can not compare that rhytm & swing with a Salsa Band, may be from the point of view of a musician yes but from the point of view of the music oriented to the dancer,timba can not compare to swing of the salsa music. I remeber when I use to go dancing at the Coabey which a hard Salsero club, we were always there until was the turn of Timba music, then you could see the exodus of the dancer to El Tropico which was another hard Salsero pub but there the cadence of the salsa music was just better.

[davidpenalosa]

I think it’s really a matter of cultural preference. Timba is Cuban music created for Cuban dancers. I haven’t witnessed anything that comes close to Cubans dancing to their own music. A timba dance in Havana is truly a spectacle to behold. The Cuban taste tends towards more syncopation than what is found in other salsa. Non-Cubans tend to not know how to dance to it. I like timba and never had a problem finding the time dancing to salsa, but I continually got off-time dancing to timba in Havana clubs because the pianist would intentionally displace his guajeo. I would unconsciously follow the guajeo and then all of a sudden, notice that I was dancing on offbeats!

I have to say that good timba definitely swings! I don’t know what timba band you saw in PR, but I imagine that it’s not a Cuban band. You can always tell when a timba band is not from Cuba. It’s hard to make timba swing if you are not steeped in that genre.

Regardless though, I can easily imagine an exodus of dancers leaving a club in PR or North America when a Cuban timba band played. It would happen for the same reason the Cubans walked out on NYC-based Tipica ’73, within five minutes of their first note, when that band visited Havana - it’s a matter of cultural preference.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

David: Thank you for the Timba link. I'm FLOORED. So much fantastic info. For free! How can I let Kevin Moore know how much I appreciate his site?

Nice anecdote about dancing on the off beat.

I have to add that I do not HATE Timba! It just doesn't get to me somehow. Currently I re-discover 70's and 80's Salsa, and I feel fine with it. I wish I could dig all that modern stuff, 'cause it might make me look less Jurassic. But I just can't help it.

TA

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Thomas,
Here's the page where you can contact Kevin Moore:

http://www.timba.com/artists/news/index.asp?page=mail.htm

I'm sure he would love to hear from you. He studied bata drums quite intently for a time and I believe he's aware of your work.

For the most part, timba peaked about a decade ago. With very little exception, most timba today sounds derivative. What's more popular in Hamburg - timba or old school salsa?
-David

[caballoballo]

David, when you feel off beat during dancing just find where you are with respect to the clave and get back on the beat. It does not matter if you are dancing on 2 which is PuertoRican or N.Y style, 3 or 1, just find the clave do some Zapateo and get on the beat.

[Thomas Altmann]

David:

What's more popular in Hamburg - timba or old school salsa?

Neither nor. The Cubans either like Timba, if they are in the popular/bailable field, or Guarapachangueo and experimental drumming fusions, if they are folkloric. But as the German musicians cannot really handle Timba, they are pretty lonely with their passion.

Whatsoever, bands are mostly hired to play the Buena Vista Social Club repertoire, period. So that's what is payed for, and that's what musicians do (if they don't play Rock 'n' Roll, anyway).

Thanks for the contact. I just wrote Kevin.

Thomas

[davidpenalosa]

... just find the clave do some Zapateo and get on the beat.

Caballoballo,
Thanks. Yes of course, a laugh and a little jig and I’m back on. Usually the piano guajeo’s binary rhythmic structure intimates clave. So when the guajeo is then displaced, the effect is akin to displacing the clave itself. Have you ever danced to guajoes employing this devilish technique of pattern displacement (what Recebca Mauleon erroneously calls "beat displacement")? It is not used in regular salsa. The technique was developed by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba in the 1980’s and was later adapted into timba during the 1990’s.

Several years after my dancing experience I was able to instruct the former piano player in my band, Michael Stephenson, in this technique. He was a very talented child prodigy, one of the most gifted musicians I’ve ever worked with. Upon hearing Michael’s employment of guajeo displacement, rumbero/sonero Fito Reinoso dubbed him "El Diablito" (the little devil). Michael got so good at subtle displacements that the other members in our band would occasionally lose time.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1202677701

[davidpenalosa]

Thomas,
I'm surprised to hear that the Buena Vista Social Club repertoire is the standard fair in Hamburg. Is that the prevalent trend for Latin dance clubs in the rest of Germany and neighboring EU countries?
-David

[Derbeno]

A UK friend of mine just returned from his annual Cuba trip.
Regretfully he reports that the youngsters are into Reggaeton in a big way.