The term tres / dos - What does this mean

[windhorse]

I'm still not quite following why the middle drum is called tres dos.

It simply is the name of it. Why is the colour blue called blue? Because thats the name of it.

Abakua, et al,
I think the reason everyone is tweaked out on this one is that it's numbers... Weird to call something by numbers,,, especially when it's 3 and 2..
Segundo is also a number, but it's easy to understand that it's the second one up or down in a set of three drums. So, no-one questions that one.
Maybe that's where 3-2 comes from,, it's the second one up or down in a set of three..
Then there's the other side of this line of thinking..
Tres Golpes. Three strokes. Which three strokes? The single tone is on the third main downbeat.. But then why the 2?
hmm..

[JohnnyConga]

Yes Thomas ..your first example would be what i mean.....there are 3 strokes just the way you write it..but on the 3 side of clave, i believe....dos golpes is 2 strokes...the way I learned it so many years ago...ol skool....today because conga drumming has become so sophisticated , the way we used to play, has changed and evolved...though the patterns may remain the same, the way it's played today may have some new variations...the reference to playing it on one drum has always been like that, each drum with it's own function and parts to play...Johnny Conga....

[Thomas Altmann]

Thank you J.C. -

there are 3 strokes just the way you write it..but on the 3 side of clave, i believe....dos golpes is 2 strokes...the way I learned it so many years ago...ol skool....

Did you learn to play that way from Hank Fields? Or more than just one player? Do you know who had influenced him?

TA



Edited By Thomas Altmann on 1203806444

[TONE74]

Can it be 3 for the bass on bombo and 2 open tones ( tres golpes ) and 2 for the drum being the segundo? I doubt it 's something complicated probably really simple.

[JohnnyConga]

Hi Thomas....well I was taught about tres golpes/dos golpes from "George "Sabu" Caldwell the 3rd who was a drummer for Olatunji-Dizzy Gillespie and toured with the Katherine Dunham dance co, with Julito Collazo, Patato, and Fransisco Aguabella..."George" could play anything....and he had learned it from them..My teacher Hank Fields was a student of Armando Peraza...Hank taught me the basics and George taught me how to play for dancers(african/ballet/etc./......Johnny Conga....

[Thomas Altmann]

Thanks Johnny. Sounds like a solid foundation, and, as it seems, you even made the best of it.

Thomas

[jorge]

I have never heard anyone explain the derivation of the term tres dos, but I think Thomas' theory sounds the most reasonable. Sometimes we play 3 tones, sometimes 2. Tres golpes implies you always play 3 tones, dos golpes 2 tones, but you rarely hear rumbas with the second part so constant. Only thing against the theory is sometimes we play one tone, what they call "golpe" in Matanzas.

Wait a minute, don't we all have better things to do than theorize about something we will probably never be able to prove? Like Abakua said, why is blue called blue? Why is a car called a car? Why is ibiono called ibiono?

Hey JC,
I remember George Caldwell "Sabu". I took a few conga classes with him back in my early days learning to play, back when he lived over by Spofford. He also taught at Olatunji Center on 125th St, and we used to play for dance classes over there with James Cherry, Stacy Edwards, and others. He taught me a split hand rumba rhythm with the right hand playing a straight 1-2-3-4 tumbador (slap on 2, open tone on 4) and the left hand playing rumba clave with the 2 tones on the first two hits of clave, so it sounded like an old school guaguanco. Did he teach you the same pattern? It took me a few times getting kicked out of rumbas in Central Park to switch the tones on the tres dos to the other side of clave, but it wasn't wrong, just an older style. That was about 35 years ago, I haven't heard anything about Sabu since the mid 70s, have you?



Edited By jorge on 1203881778

[davidpenalosa]

Wait a minute, don't we all have better things to do than theorize about something we will probably never be able to prove? Like Abakua said, why is blue called blue? Why is a car called a car? Why is ibiono called ibiono?

There's an answer to each of those questions you asked...
Blue - from the Middle English "blewe" (1250–1300), etc...

if you put it that way, we probably all have better things to do than participate in an on-line forum.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Also, Jorge, there is the wonderful and often amazing chance that somebody on the globe actually can prove something that you thought nobody could. There are always people who know something better than I and vice versa.

Being able to deduct a meaning from the name of the instrument you play could open up new horizons, or another way to look at it. Also in this context, Johnny contributed to a point we made in the clave thread, AND gave room to the idea that the three stroke pattern on the segunda might have been there before the two stroke pattern.

All that is pretty interesting, and I had not expected these results before. Thanks to Congadelica.

TA

[bongosnotbombs]

I asked this question a while ago concerning names of congas, and it seemed to come to two main methods, that congas receive their name, one, from their sizes and also by their roles in the music, this thread suggests a third method, that the drums also can be referred to by the notes they play within a rhythm...

[JohnnyConga]

JORGE U GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!..Your the ONLY other guy I ever met in all the years I knew George "Sabu", that had lessons with him..and YES he taught me the split hand guaguanco, which I still teach today...wow...do you have any photos him? I have only one of him from 1954 with Dizzy Gillespies band...Im gonna be 60 how old are you? and when did you meet him and where?....the last time i believe i saw him was on a bench by himself in Central Park 1974....i met him thru a friend and then at Baba Tunji's dance classes in Harlem, couple of doors down from the Apollo upstairs...which was my first dance classes.....Wow what a trip!....Johnny Conga....

[JohnnyConga]

Here is the only photo of George "Sabu" Caldwell the 3rd, with the Dizzy Gillespie band circa 1954.....Johnny Conga...

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... e_1955.jpg

[jorge]

Hey Johnny,
I think it was 1972, I took classes with Sabu Caldwell at the Olatunji Center and then a few classes at his apartment on Spofford Ave. I am 55, about 4 years behind you. He was not my first teacher, my first teachers were Johnny Dill and Danny Barrajanos, who were the drummers at Syvilla Fort's Studio for Theatre Dance on 44th St. That is where I first started learning to play for dance classes, then Sabu taught me more. Since then, I have always loved playing for dance classes.

The two things I remember specifically that Sabu taught me were that split hand guaguanco and a Ñañigo rhythm. Both of those rhythms have had a major influence on my playing up until this day. At that time a lot of people didn't understand how the clave fit with the Abakua rhythm, we all thought the obiapa tone was on the downbeat. It was Sabu that showed me where downbeat and clave go in relation to the obiapa part. He also showed me some stuff for the quinto, but it went over my head at that time.

I don't have any pictures of Sabu, but I want to thank you for posting that one. Even though he was a lot older when I knew him, that picture reminds me of the look he would have on his face when he played quinto. Wow, small world. I didn't study with him that long, after that I moved to NJ and started college and lost touch with him. Since Sabu, I haven't had any regular teachers, I mainly learned en la universidad de la calle, y del Parque Central, and occasionally I set up one or two classes here and there with great drummers that happen to be in town. Wow, Sabu Caldwell, this brings back great memories. Like many others who are the best teachers and the best drummers, Sabu was very humble, no big ego trips. Thanks for mentioning him. I haven't heard anything about him for many years and would guess he is no longer physically with us, if that is true may he rest in peace.



Edited By jorge on 1203919416

[Mike]

Hi guys!

split hand guaguanco

???
Just for clarification: Is this what you refer to?
1+2+3+4+ 1+2+3+4+
conga OhtO S t B S

tumba OO t OO ht t OO
(or just O O O)

That´s the way I learned two-handed guaganco from a book - unfortunately from a book only, as there are no rumba venues in parks in Germany at all - beware the lawn, the police and the shepherd dogs :p

Mike



Edited By Mike on 1203945692

[ralph]

On Yoruba Andabo's first album in the liner notes, you'll find a sort of dictionary with all these terms and more...thats where I first heard of dos golpes, in conjuntion with tres golpes (which i heard of earlier)...I surmise that possibly, 3 golpes may mean the 3 main golpes that you play while playing the segundo, which is the bass and the two tones, dos golpes would mean the two main hits you play while playing the bajo, which is the bass and tone....but thats probably a stretch....obviously if you are playing palo or abakua these terms would not apply as they seem to be used excusively within the rumba complex...