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Posted: **Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:46 pm**

This is a continuation from a discussion which kept veering off subject.
It is sort of cross referencing with the “Notation” thread, but includes counting and clave, so I started a new subject. I somehow get the feeling its going to veer off on a clave tangent…hence the subject name

As I've said several times in this forum, the 3-2, 2-3 concept and terminology is not applicable to folkloric music. It does not apply to the on-beat emphasis of a rhythm, where in clave a percussion part enters or where a song begins. It only refers to which side of clave a chord progression begins.

One source of proof of this is the fact that Cuban folklorists do not relate to 3-2, 2-3. However, teachers like Carlos Aldama have had many North American and European students ask them if something was "3-2 or 2-3 clave". What ends up happening is the folklorists use the terminology incorrectly in an effort to help their students:
"1 . . 2 . . . 1 . . 2 . 3 . . ."

Then, some students try to read into this, looking for some kind of message, some insight they may be missing. Folklorists like Carlos have so much to offer, they are like walking encyclopedias. However, this is just another case of misunderstanding what 3-2, 2-3 is.

The first conga drum teachers in the USA were band drummers who understood clave through the prism of popular music. They did not grow up within the folkloric context; they didn't come from those neighborhoods where rumba and bata were part of the social fabric. So, these early North American drummers improperly applied 3-2, 2-3 to all the clave-based music they played. This whole confusion with 3-2, 2-3 has a long history in North America. It's going to take awhile to straighten it out.

Would you say that the Cuban folklorist outlook on the clave is analogous to the outlook of the African drum master in the village regarding beats (i.e. there is no counting system 4/4 6/8…only a series of amorphous beats)?

That is………in those social, cultural, community traditions…
the clave or the amorphous beat just....IS......
……..and there is no questioning, or analyzing or quantifying it as we are prone to do.

It is so integral a part of the social fabric of community music and dance (admittedly having evolved along with the respective culture to be there to begin with) that it exists and is known as an abstract entity in itself, and the respective musical traditions inform themselves from what is so plainly obvious? (to them)

It needs no explanation because it is so evident and known (and learned so young…acculturated… one might say).

Does that make any sense or am I just howling at the moon? ???

Edited By Joseph on 1204240635

Posted: **Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:55 pm**

Whew..after that one…here’s my next foray..

David
Please be patient with me, sometimes I ask stupid questions, sometimes I make moronic suppositions, but I am grasping to understand. I certainly don’t mean to needle you with minutia, but you seem to be a very detail oriented. And I am fascinated, as well as at times completely befuddled by the subject.

Attached is notation from Tomas Cruz Vol 2

Notice I have made a box notation under the first measure which articulates the clave (I think!) as it is meant to be played in this piece.
It is described as 2-3 rumba clave
Is my box notation correct?

if you must get a metrical reference, ask them to play the accompanying clave or bell pattern,

On page 27 of Vol 2 there is a paragraph titled
Why the Marchas Start Where They Do
“Tomas and the other Cuban drummers we’ve encountered are all quite adamant about the correct starting point of each rhythm, and it often doesn’t coincide with the ‘1’ of the time signature….”

I read that to be …”the phrasing of the drum pattern often doesn’t coincide with the 1….”
But if you look at the first measure, the phrasing of the drum pattern begins on the “3” side of the clave
…that is if I wrote 2-3 box notation in there correctly…

What ends up happening is the folklorists use the terminology incorrectly in an effort to help their students:

Isn’t that a case in point here with the Tomas Cruz Mozambique(as well as examples throughout the book)…labelling it a 2-3 rumba clave

RULE#2 Never ask your African or Cuban folklorist teacher if it's "3-2, or 2-3?"

I tried listening to the DVD track but it has a “special Mozambique click track” rather than the clave, so I couldn’t hear clave in this example.

As an aside, I find myself going back again and again and reading the text of the Tomas Cruz series, and find stuff I simply just didn’t comprehend the first time I read them.
They are a treasure trove.
The appendix on the subject of clave is more than I have been able to grasp at a single sitting...without an onset of dozing.
I’m biting off small chunks at a time

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Posted: **Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:59 pm**

This attached page is from “Timba Funk” by David Garibaldi, Jesus Diaz, Michael Spiro.
Same rhythm: Mozambique

The first interesting thing to note, is that in this book the notation is written in 4/4 with 1/8 notes and uses 2 measures for each clave resolution.

The best way to write the four beats is in a single measure because that way, one measure = one primary cycle, one musical period. Here are some books that write four beats (one cycle of clave) in one measure:
The Code of Funk" by David Garibaldi

Interesting that there is inconsistency in clave notation from the same author on similar subjects.

The other interesting thing is that he doe’s not label the piece 2-3 Rumba clave.

if you must get a metrical reference, ask them to play the accompanying clave or bell pattern

He embeds the clave in the piece on a separate staff line. Every other example in that book follows that example….no musical example is labeled 3-2 or 2-3…just a separate staff line showing the clave in each example. He’s literally practicing what you have stated…putting the metrical reference there on paper along with accompanying parts.

I like and agree with that method.
I find it much clearer to comprehend in grasping the context of the clave within the example than the Tomas Cruz example
And it seems to address you peeve about...

improperly applied 3-2, 2-3 to all the clave-based music

Can’t say I’m thrilled about the font though…I find it hard to read….time to up the magnification on my reading glasses
:cool:

Edited By Joseph on 1204249918

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Posted: **Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:57 am**

Joseph wrote:Would you say that the Cuban folklorist outlook on the clave is analogous to the outlook of the African drum master in the village regarding beats (i.e. there is no counting system 4/4 6/8…only a series of amorphous beats)?

Generally speaking, I would say yes. However, formal music education is interfacing more and more with aural traditions. In Cuba the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional in Havana hosts folkloric masters from across the island who teach their music and dance and learn from other masters. It’s been going on at the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional for more than 40 years now. This is not the kind of formal education we see in the conservatories, but the sharing of folkloric knowledge is significant. Carlos Aldama and Lazro Ros were some of the Conjunto’s top teachers. I've noticed that the young conga drummers played with a standardized technique they learned at the Conjunto.

There’s also a uniform method of instruction happening at the national school of the arts in Havana (ENA). When I was visiting there, I heard bata, rumba, son, jazz and classical music coming out of the practice rooms. A lot of the top timba musicians came out of the ENA.

A friend of mine tells me of a top folklorist in Matanzas who is formally trained and is a formidable music theorist.

The world’s leading music theorist in the realm of African rhythm is an African – C.K. Ladzekpo. The University of Ghana, where C.K. taught, is kind of like the Conjunto Folklorico, in that they have master musicians come from all over Africa to teach and to learn. What makes the University of Ghana unique is that music theory is incorporated with the teaching of different African musics. They have a theoretical framework with which they can study these different musics from different regions.

Westerners have tended to overly-romanticize African rhythm; saying it can’t be accurately written down, and attempting to do so, robs it of its essence. I highly recommend "Representing African Music: Postcolonial Notes, Queries, Positions" by the African scholar Kofi Agawu. He separates African views from non-African views on this subject:

"One reason for skepticism about transcriptions is the often careless claim that African music cannot be adequately transcribed into European notation…. It is noteworthy that the debate about appropriateness of staff notation for African music is a subject of particular interest to outsiders, not insiders. African scholars from Kyagmbiddwa to Kongo have for the most part accepted the conventions – and limitations - of staff notation and gone on to produce transcriptions in order to inform and to make possible a higher level of discussion and debate. .. If no African qualities refuse translation, we are better off putting our energies towards building a basic library – with all its imperfections – that can enable an informed rather than impressionistic discussion of actual notes, rhythms and timbres that African musicians play and sing." (pg. 52)

Agawu also makes the point that box notation is an unnecessary and limiting system compared to the standard Western system.
-David

Edited By davidpenalosa on 1204310570

Posted: **Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:21 am**

Joseph wrote:
What ends up happening is the folklorists use the terminology incorrectly in an effort to help their students:

Isn’t that a case in point here with the Tomas Cruz Mozambique(as well as examples throughout the book)…labelling it a 2-3 rumba clave

No. This is proper usage of the 3-2, 2-3 concept and terminology. The Tomas Cruz books deal with popular (band) music, not folkloric music. Mozambique is a popular genre, although in the beginning it was very similar to the folkloric rhythm conga de comparsa. Mozambique songs, in both the original Cuban genre and the NY version, tend to be in 2-3. In Pello el Afrokan's (Cuban) mozambique that conga part enters on the three-side, not on "one" (in 2-3).
-David

Edited By davidpenalosa on 1204269754

Posted: **Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:29 am**

Joseph wrote:This attached page is from “Timba Funk” by David Garibaldi, Jesus Diaz, Michael Spiro.
Same rhythm: Mozambique
The first interesting thing to note, is that in this book the notation is written in 4/4 with 1/8 notes and uses 2 measures for each clave resolution.
Interesting that there is inconsistency in clave notation from the same author on similar subjects.

Maybe David Garibaldi didn't write these charts. Maybe Jesus Diaz or Michael Spiro did.

This is popular not folkloric music and therefore it is appropriate to show clave in the 2-3 sequence.
-David

Posted: **Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:51 am**

Joseph wrote:I tried listening to the DVD track but it has a “special Mozambique click track” rather than the clave, so I couldn’t hear clave in this example.

I spoke with Kevin Moore (author of the Tomas Cruz books) tonight about this. On the DVD the bell enters on the two-side and the congas enter on the three-side.

He created this link for you in regards to your question. Copy and paste the address into your address bar and away you go:

http://www.timba.com/artists....htm#top

Check out the audio clip of Pello el Afrokan's mozambique. The congas enter on the three-side and the bell enters on the two-side. The song is in 2-3.

Pello's arrangement is cool because he uses a technique usually associated with folkoric music; parts enter in different places within the clave cycle. Anybody who's played bata drums is familar with this technique. It is a cool technique to use in popular music as Pello has done here. Tomas Cruz and other drummers use the technique in timba as well.

Usually in popular music a drummer enters on the "one", either "one" in 3-2, or "one" in 2-3.
-David

Edited By davidpenalosa on 1204276695

Posted: **Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:21 am**

Here's Kevins' explanation for you Joseph, added after I wrote the previous posts:

http://www.timba.com/artists....htm#top

How about that for service? A direct answer from the book's author.

Edited By davidpenalosa on 1204310433

Posted: **Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:48 am**

Thanks David for providing link to Timba.com online book! It looks like a wealth of knowledge in there!

Posted: **Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:32 pm**

Yes David,
Thank you so much for investing your time in your patient explanations!
...And for the links!
...and to Kevin Moore!
..the power of the web..wow!

The only book I have read regarding the African outlook is
"African Rhythm and African Sensibility - Aesthetics and Social Action in African Musical Idioms" by John Miller Chernoff

I just received and am looking forward to reading
"Arsenio Rodriquez and the Transnational Flows of Latin Popular Music" by David F. Garcia

Agawu also makes the point that box notation is an unnecessary and limiting system compared to the standard Western system.

Interesting, I'd like to read further elaboration on that.
I'll look up "Representing African Music: Postcolonial Notes, Queries, Positions" by Kofi Agawu

I've got a lot of reading to do!

Mil gracias

Edited By Joseph on 1204289034

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