Notation - A consistent standard

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Postby Mike » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:47 pm

Very, very interesting discusion going on here.
Charles was an innovator indeed.
Yes, I am offtopic: Steve Reich has written wonderful music too. At times I find it too meditative if not brainy :;):

As to notation:
If you have got notation or grow up with the oral tradition
My studies of East African music and of Tanzanian music in particular so far have revealed the utmost un-importance of any kind of notation for the so-called traditional music, especially when it comes to playing and/or teaching marimba, ngoma (drum) or litungu (kind of lyre). Oral tradition is the key here.
At the same time, there are bands and orchestras all over the place that play a fusion of African music and music influenced the European tradition (e.g. brass bands). Another example is Zanzibar, where musicians have integrated European instruments over the years (e.g. the violin). In general, there has been a growing interest in learning European notation along with instruments like the trumpet or the clarinet.
This phenomenon shows that you never have one single system of memorizing or even reading music, but to me it rather looks like "cultural notation" so to speak. What is up-to-date in countries that have more than "just" one kind of basis for playing, be it five-line notation for pitch or notation for other musical parameter leads to an ever-changing mixture of differently educated musicians.


Just my 2 European cents :;):
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Postby Joseph » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:55 pm

African-based rhythms though... are not poly-metric.


From Chernoff
"African music is often characterized as polymetric, because, in contrast to most Western music, African music cannot be notated without assigning different meters to the different instruments of an ensemble. In the the notation below (which I don't have the time to scan for illustration), it is sufficient to notice that the notice that the musicians do not find their entrances by counting from a main beat, but rather they must find their entrances in relation to the other instruments"

He then goes on and mentions cross rhythms and poly-rhythms in the same paragraph, which is somewhat confusing to me, somewhat mixing his metaphors.

"In such music, the conflicting rhythmic patterns and accents are called cross rhythms. The diverse rhythms establish themselves in intricate and changing relationships with each other analogously to the way that tones establish harmony in Western music. The effect of polymetric music is as if the different rhythms were competing for our attention. No sooner do we grasp one rhythm than we lose track of it and hear another. In something like Adzogbo (the notation referred to in the other quote)or Zhen, it is not easy to find any constant beat at all. The western conception of a main beat or pulse seems to disappear, and a Westerner who cannot appreciate the rhythmic complications and who maintains his habitual listening orientation quite simply gets lost."

Cross rhythms are rhythms which alternately clash and sync with each other within the same metric framework?
Poly-rhythms are rhythms playing simultaneously, but in different metric frameworks?

Maybe he should have called it "Stoned on the Fourth of July" :;):

What is up-to-date in countries that have more than "just" one kind of basis for playing, be it five-line notation for pitch or notation for other musical parameter leads to an ever-changing mixture of differently educated musicians.

Yes, nature shows us in so many ways...There is enduring strength in diversity.




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Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:23 pm

Joseph wrote:From Chernoff
"African music is often characterized as polymetric, because, in contrast to most Western music, African music cannot be notated without assigning different meters to the different instruments of an ensemble.

Cross rhythms are rhythms which alternately clash and sync with each other within the same metric framework?
Poly-rhythms are rhythms playing simultaneously, but in different metric frameworks?

With all due respect to Chernoff, in this instance he is flat out wrong. You can definitely represent African music in a single meter (a single time signature). In fact, that is the correct way to do it. Kofi Arom addresses this confusion by Chernoff and others:

"[T]he term ‘polymetric’ is only applicable to a very special kind of phenomenon. If we take "metre" in its primary sense of metrum (the metre being the temporal reference unit), ‘polymetric’ would describe the simultaneous unfolding of several parts in a single work at different tempos so as not to be reducible to a single metrum. This happens in some modern music, such as some of Charles Ive’s works, Elliott Carter’s Symphony, B.A. Zimmermann’s opera Die Soldaten, and Pierre Boulez’s Rituel. Being polymetric in the strict sense, these works can only be performed with several simultaneous conductors." – Arom (1991:205)

Here’s a simple example of poly-rhythm:

1--2--3--4-- part 1
-XX-XX-XX-XX part 2

(Note: the examples will properly align in size 12 courier font.)

The two parts contradict each other, but both reinforce the primary beats. Part 1 plays the beats and part 2 plays the offbeats.

Here’s a simple example of cross-rhythm (a sub-set of poly-rhythm):

1--2--3--4-- part 1 (primary beats)
X-X-X-X-X-X- part 2 (secondary beats)

The secondary beats are cross-beats; they contradict the primary beats. However, the primary referent is always the four beats. The six beats are always understood and felt in cross-rhythmic relation to the meter (four beats). In the case of poly-rhythm and the more specific cross-rhythm, you always tap your foot to the four primary beats.

Here’s a simple example of poly-meter:


1--2--3--4--1--2--3--4--1--2--3--4-- part 1
1---2---3---4---5---1---2---3---4---5--- part 2

One section of the ensemble is playing the meter of part 1; they are tapping their foot four times per measure and dividing each beat (foot tap) into three pulses. Another section of the ensemble is playing the meter of part 2; they are tapping their foot five times per measure and dividing each beat (foot tap) into four pulses. Keep in mind too, that the tempos can be different for each meter, so that the alignment I show here doesn’t even have to be present. The two meters can be in their own "universes" so to speak, ala Ives.
-David




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Postby Joseph » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:01 pm

poly-rhythm
Cross rhythm
Poly-meter
....clarified, thanks

The two meters can be in their own "universes" so to speak,

Good description


Being polymetric in the strict sense, these works can only be performed with several simultaneous conductors.

That would be something to see...imagine what rehearsals are like!
The performing musicians must have to wear blinders to make sure they don't glance at the other conductors. :laugh:
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Postby zumbi » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:16 pm

david, your scholarship is impressing but sometimes the zeal for definition and classification makes understanding things more complex than it could otherwise be.
for example: to many drumset players "odd" meters are like a terrible beast that scare them as they hear the name.
my experience as a drumset teacher shows me that if i sing, let's say a 7/8 groove to a student and teach him to sing it first and then play, he can usually master it without many difficulties.
if, on the other hand, i write it down and he/she see the time signature and start to count...big troubles ahead!
is like the zen story about the centipede who naturally runs smooth moving his many legs in perfect harmony...until another bug ask him how he does that: he then stop to think and tries to rationalize the movement. and is never able to make a single step for the rest of his life.
that's why, with all due respect to notation, invaluable for scholarly purposes, i strongly favor the immediacy of the oral transmission when it comes to teaching and learning drumming, dance, martial arts and all those disciplines that require oneness of body, mind and spirit.
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Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:25 pm

zumbi wrote:david, your scholarship is impressing but sometimes the zeal for definition and classification makes understanding things more complex than it could otherwise be.

Zumbi,
I don't understand how defining terms has any bearing on the pros and cons of notation and traditional methods of teaching. Those were fine examples you gave, but I don't see how that relates to my desire to say what I mean and mean what I say. I would think that being unclear in our language would tend to make things more complex, rather than less.

Did I "confuse" you now about cross-rhythm and poly-rhythm? Were you addressing these issues, or referring to an earlier post of mine?
-David




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Postby zumbi » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:40 pm

it was a general statement, david, not referred to anything you wrote in particular.
those definitions (poly-rhythms, poly-metrics etc) are very clear and i see no problem in them.
but they risk to remain abstract in a way unless they can be actually exemplified.
written language (like notated music) is just a conventional approximation of a description of reality.
it is not and will never be a substitute for the actual experience of said reality.
so we are going in circle around tmy main (original) point: notation, and by extension descriptive approach, ALONE, will not deliver (in my own humble opinion).
one love!
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Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:42 am

zumbi wrote:it was a general statement, david, not referred to anything you wrote in particular.
written language (like notated music) is just a conventional approximation of a description of reality. it is not and will never be a substitute for the actual experience of said reality.
so we are going in circle around tmy main (original) point: notation, and by extension descriptive approach, ALONE, will not deliver

Zumbi,
I believe that it is you alone my friend who are going in a circle, as you seem to be arguing with a phantom. If you re-read my posts you will realize that I never said "notation ALONE, will deliver", or anything like that. Has anybody in this thread made such an assertion?

So, you were making a "general statement" and were not referring to anything I said in particular. Well, why are you addressing me specifically if you aren’t responding to what I said? You are implying that I’m making an argument (I’m not making) by addressing your "counter-argument" to me.

You informed me that "notated music is just a conventional approximation of a description of reality…. and will never be a substitute for the actual experience of said reality."

Gee whiz, I already knew that!

I am now compelled to inform you that these words I’m writing here are not really my thoughts, they are just the best conventional approximation of a description of my thoughts. They are just the best description of my thoughts that I’m able to approximate at this time. These symbols I’m presently typing out will never be a substitute for my actual thoughts. As limiting as this writing thing is, I hope they will at least convey the gist of my thoughts to you. :)

By the way, the majority of my teaching is done through demonstration and oral transmission.

One love!

-David




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Postby zumbi » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:48 am

perfect my brother,
so i think we can move on even because everybody else left the two of us alone in this :laugh:
peace & blessings!
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Postby Mike » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:13 pm

You never drum alone... :;):

Well, actually I followed your discussion intensely, but I didn´t dare interrupting you - I simply was afraid of being chopped into pieces :D

Seriously, as I also teach music (at a German high school), my students fall in two categories as far as our TOPIC here is concerned:
Some pupils can read notation, learned that at a relatively early age, the majority has got severe problem "reading" notation because they don´t use it or even won´t use it ever again. You see, the compulsory aspect of a general education...
But then, even those with a background to "traditional Western/European" notation simply need ORAL instruction to learn (to play, understand, dance) the MUSIC
I am teaching them. We all know that music is a lot more than ´just´playing the notes.
These are my peaceful Sunday thoughts for you , David & Zumbi, who have hopefully wrestled enough now :laugh:

Finally, great thread, makes you think about many standard notions music.

Mike




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Postby Joseph » Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:57 pm

Yes music is more than just playing the notes.
Music is an art in time…in performance it only exists for that performance
It was a much rarer and precious thing before recorded music. (though we are all the richer because of recorded music)
Now I can just set my Ipod on “shuffle” through my rumba playlist, and have it run on for hours with my favorite stuff.

Western notation has come to be the standard by which set pieces can be conveyed to others, so that they might be learned or performed.
It’s a dense symbolic language that conveys the tonality, meter, rhythm, melody, harmony, dynamics , tempo, etc, all on a few lines of a musical staff.
It’s pretty amazing when you think of it.
It can be intimidating and difficult to learn (talk about brain processing and neural pathways!) for those who didn’t learn while young, but there are great rewards in having a familiarity with it. (and I’m definitely outta practice...drum notation, on the other hand I find relatively easy)
It allows one to read across cultural boundaries, so to speak, as a proficient reader could get the feel for a Brasilian samba, a Bach two-part invention, then an African song cycle, right in succession…it they had all the scores in front of them. (not to say that they wouldn't benefit a teacher familiar with those styles)

All of the above relates to “technique”. Technique is a fundamental that precedes “artistry” or “artistic interpretation”.
Not to say that one must have oriented themselves to western notation to be an accomplished musician of considerable artistry.
There are so many natural unschooled(in our sense of the word) musicians that prove that point.

Teaching by demonstration and oral transmission conveys the intangibles.... “more than just playing notes”:
Paths to refine that technique, to aid in the musician’s path to self expression...
Paths to conceptualize the rhythms (or whatever aspect) in ways that go beyond notes and numbers and counting...
Encouragement when those inevitable plateaus occur, and the gentle ability to take the student to the edge of that plateau, and show them how far they’ve climbed, even as you both know you are standing at the base of a mountain of work, and knowledge to be gained.

All that being said….I feel guilty now (nah...not really) because I don’t have a teacher at present....and I'm lookin' up a steep slope :(




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Postby Whopbamboom » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:50 am

davidpenalosa wrote:It's true there are many amazing blind musicians. I'm not aware of any deaf musicians on the other hand....

Not to get off-topic too much :p

But there was Ludwig Van Beethoven (completely deaf when he composed some of his greatest works), and there is currently Evelyn Glennie (master percussionist).
Check out a write-up on Evelyn:

http://www.drummergirl.com/interviews/glennie/glennie.htm

I might guess that both have probably made considerable use of standardized notation when they wished to communicate musical ideas to others...

Now back to the topic...
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Postby zumbi » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:10 pm

Mike wrote:Well, actually I followed your discussion intensely, but I didn´t dare interrupting you - I simply was afraid of being chopped into pieces :D

mike!
no need to be afraid: the only thing i would chop off is the hand of the careless student that may attempt to notate part of my lesson... :laugh:

yes!
evelyn glennie is the one i was referring to in my previous post: i just couldn't recall her name.
she surely can read music but in a interview i read she said she use the vibrations coming through the floor to feel the music.
that's why she performs bare feet and only on certain kind of stages.
beethoven's deafness progressed over the years and, at some point, he stopped performing and retired to a very secluded life. he could still compose "by memory", though, having completely acquired and internalized the sound of music over the year.
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Re: Notation - A consistent standard

Postby Joseph » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:57 pm

Yet another notation system

……specifically for African, Latin, Caribbean music
A variation of the Time Unit Box Notation…..Textiling Notation

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/African%20Journals/pdfs/glendora%20review/vol3no3&4/graa003003&4020.pdf

More or less a visual aid to see the texture of a musical piece.
Interesting discussion on “time” and our perception of it…some notation is depicted in “clock time” i.e. a circular notation grid, portraying its “cyclic texture”.

Doesn’t seem to demonstrate any practical application for it, so I don’t think it will revolutionize the notation world as we know it.

A heavyweight read, for sure, but some good insights, especially as relating to “time” and “texture”

If you can’t get through the reading part, you can just space out and gaze at the texture of the groovy notation “mandalas” :shock:

The last sentence sums up it’s practicality:
Textiling notation provides a visual correlate to this life-wave, but its static nature cannot express music's
ever-changing quality, so we reach the end of this musicological juncture.
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Re: Notation - A consistent standard

Postby zumbi » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:08 pm

that will make an interesting read, joseph,
didn't got through it yet, but it's interesting that i've been using west african textile design as an example to illustrate certain rhythmic patterns to my students and fellow musicians from long time.
even before reading the chapter in "flash of the spirit" that hints at that possible connection... and now you bring this essay.
peace & blessings!
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