Notation - A consistent standard

[Joseph]

This started on another thread, but I got off subject so I moved it here

There is a growing movement to notate, and thus COUNT, the music correctly. Here are some examples of books with correct notation/counting:

"The Tomas Cruz Conga Method Vols. 1,2,3", written by Kevin Moore. I’m credited with "conceptual guidance" in these books, so naturally, I agree with its notation and counting system.

Conga Place’s notation seems to be at odds with notation in Tomas Cruz series, in regards to “palm, tip, bass” symbols.


Conga Place has separate symbols for Bass, palm, tip
Tomas Cruz has symbols for Bass, tip
Excluding the separate Conga Place symbol for Bass,……….

The other two symbols( those little triangles)
Conga Place: palm tip
Tomas Cruz: bass tip
are exact opposites of each other.

Maybe I’m observing a mountain, where there is only a mole hill, but there is something to be said for consistency, which is somewhat where this started.

There is a growing movement to notate, ….. correctly

I’m glad to hear that.
I much prefer (musical) notation for conga rhythms.


I find the Conga Place notation system to be more intuitively understandable, in distinguishing among bass, palm & tip.
As well the symbols for the particular palm(triangle) & tip(inverted triangle) seem to represent to me how my hand lands on the drum.

There have been a few times when I had to go back to the front pages of the Tomas Cruz books to make sure I was using the correct hand stroke when reading palm-tip rhythms.
I can appreciate how Tomas Cruz symbology encompasses more strokes by filling in triangles.


If…there is a growing movement to notate correctly, I am wondering about the logic for the seemingly opposite notational symbolism from these two highly regarded (in my estimation) sources.


Tomas Cruz Notation:



Edited By Joseph on 1204141162

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[davidpenalosa]

If…there is a growing movement to notate correctly, I am wondering about the logic for the seemingly opposite notational symbolism from these two highly regarded (in my estimation) sources.

Hi Joseph,
I was referring to the representation of musical time only, not the representation of the various drum strokes (open, slap, etc). I feel that we are a long way from standardizing the representation of drum strokes.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Joseph,

I received my first tomas Cruz book yesterday. Aspiring conga players today are lucky; they got videos, and they have books like this; they have better teachers, visiting Cuban players, and tons of recordings.

When I looked at the notation, I just sighed: O.K. here we have another conga notation system, again. From the seventies on I have seen so many notation systems, I had to adapt my own way several times. Then came computer typesetting with Finale, Sibelius and the likes, and again everything changed, but I am not going to change my way anymore. Who would, and why? Who in the world will define a standardized, uniform sound symbol system, and who would accept it as a rule? I, for instance, do not hope to see one single system establish in the rest of my life.

I don't believe that symbols like different types of triangles will make it on the long run; a notation system has to work with a pencil on a piece of paper, and it must be easy for quick sketches. Sometimes during rehearsals I have to scribble down a particular pattern that I created for a new piece of music in order to reproduce it the next time.

Remember that any sound symbol system for congas (and bongos, bata etc) finds its principal application in teaching the instrument (if not better bringing your tape recorder). You will never see anything like it in percussion charts, and if you do, the composer/arranger will certainly stick only to his own notation system and demand from you to make music of it (exactly the music he/she wants to hear, to be specific). So, in a "real" working situation, you will have to adapt - again!

What you will see in charts (if there are any), are, aside from a lot of repetition marks, rhythmic note values. And this is what has to be correct and uniform, because this is established; not only for percussion, but for all instruments for centuries of music making. If, on the other hand, you or anybody decided to try and create the definitive conga notation system for the rest of the world, I would wish you good luck, but don't cry if not everybody pays attention.

Never mind,

Thomas

P.S.: Oops! David P. was faster! -TA



Edited By Thomas Altmann on 1204144846

[Joseph]

What you will see in charts (if there are any), are, ...,,,rhythmic note values. And this is what has to be correct and uniform, because this is established; not only for percussion, but for all instruments for centuries of music making.

Yes, and that is why I like musical notation. It conveys those rhythmic note values so precisely, and within the context of the rhythmic prhase (if so annotated...ala Spirology). So much more so than block notation or other forms of notation.

When I looked at the notation, I just sighed: O.K. here we have another conga notation system, again.

I actually like the notation in Cruz, just a minor differentiation from the Conga Place stuff...but still musical notations....yeah, I'll adapt

If, on the other hand, you or anybody decided to try and create the definitive conga notation system for the rest of the world, I would wish you good luck, but don't cry if not everybody pays attention.

Nah!!!
I just had my major breakthrough learning to count triple pulse correctly...thanks to David.
I don't think I'm up for the project :;):

Aspiring conga players today are lucky; they got videos, and they have books like this; they have better teachers, visiting Cuban players, and tons of recordings

You are so right there!
And don't forget online resources like Conga Place, where people from around the globe can share their knowledge.

Thanks for your input.
Mountain...meet..... molehill

[zumbi]

peace & blessings!
afro-cuban music, as the name implies, comes from ancient african musical traditions.
music in africa is taught and learned through oral tradition.
the western standard musical notation appeared very recently (in historical terms when compared to music that appeared with humankind) even in europe.
even great western composers like bach and mozart were great improvisers.
their solo pieces would sound different from day to day and what they would write down was just a reference not something to be seen as "holy revelations" as it has later become in the world of classical music.
western notation can be very useful to express complex harmonic concept but falls very short in expressing the subtlety of rhythm.
that's why africa (and the african diaspora) free from the constrictions of musical notation was able to create the highest and most complex forms of rhythms.
see a charlie parker's solo transcription and put it next to a coltrane's one: they both may look like a flow of 8th notes. how parker swing the notes compare to coltrane is impossible to tell unless you hear them playing...
that is to say: nothing wrong with writing down an exercise (although audio and video recording are far superior teaching and learning tools) but don't give the written page too much importance.
the one musician all cuban musicians agree on calling the greatest cuba ever produced, beny more, could not write or read a single note, he would arrange and conduct his band by singing to every musician his own part.
the same is true for great bandleaders like louis armstrong, art blakey and countless other...

[bongosnotbombs]

In Thomas Cruz's book he describes his method as that of the national school for Cuba..

Is this notation system of his also used in the school? or is it a separate invention.

Having learned how to read music myself when studying symphonic percussion, I think it is enormously helpful, I prefer standard music notation with letters underneath the musical bar to describe the strokes...the little symbols can be difficult to remember, I can always remember B, O, M, S, T.

[Joseph]

western notation can be very useful to express complex harmonic concept but falls very short in expressing the subtlety of rhythm.

see a charlie parker's solo transcription and put it next to a coltrane's one: they both may look like a flow of 8th notes. how parker swing the notes compare to coltrane is impossible to tell unless you hear them playing...

.........I believe you are implicitly describing interpretation, an essential aspect of musical artistry...

I feel kinda dweeby for starting a thread in such a nitpicky tone, but if it elicits elegant and informative responses such as yours, then we are all the richer for it.

Thanks

[taikonoatama]

It's just a tool. When used appropriately it need not negatively impact one's playing.

As far as the masters (in whatever genre) never having read music, well, that's fine if you grow up in the culture, or learned it when young, with a mind like a sponge. For most adults learners outside of the culture it's more like learning a foreign language (and the older you are the harder that typically is). A gifted few will be able to just pick it up, but almost every adult learner will have an accent. Few adults can just pick up a foreign language (or new musical genre) purely by ear - most have to study it in a systematic way to make any progress, and written notation (i.e., reading/writing) helps in this, whether it be in music or a foreign language.



Edited By taikonoatama on 1204157692

[bongosnotbombs]

It is only because of a standard musical notation system that we are able to listen to Mozart and Beethoven orchestra's and symphony's today, as well as other compositions.

Conversely, who knows how much African music and rhythms has been lost to future generations due to an interuption of oral and learned transmission? Or in what ways it has been altereed from the original.

Some music forms are simply impossible without a standard form of music notation. While some musics and musicians don't require notation, I've never heard of the knowledge hindering anyones development as an artist.

It would be nice to have a system deliberately devised for percussionists, it seems every work on hand percussion has an entirely new system of notation. Flute players and piano players don't have that problem and are able to freely transmit musical ideas to one another.

That's why I prefer annotated standard notation, because if someone is playing with a piano, a guitar, bass, etc, or writing for such a group it's a language some of the other players are probably familiar with.

Zumbi is right to an extent, many folkloric players I know don't read music or learn rhythms that way. Other groups are different. It's good to know the lyrics and the number of measures before a change, how long a bridge is. Charlie Parker may not have been able to read music, but Miles, Dizzy, Coltrane and Duke sure could.

[Derbeno]

To use the example of extraordinarily gifted individuals that do(did) not read or write musical notation to draw any sort of conclusion is flawed.

[davidpenalosa]

even great western composers like bach and mozart were great improvisers.
their solo pieces would sound different from day to day and what they would write down was just a reference not something to be seen as "holy revelations" as it has later become in the world of classical music.


beny more, could not write or read a single note, he would arrange and conduct his band by singing to every musician his own part.
the same is true for great bandleaders like louis armstrong, art blakey and countless other...

I'm sorry, but the four-part Bach chorals were not improvised pieces that "would sound different from day to day". They are compositional masterpieces. You are comparing apples and oranges and you are exhibiting a lack of knowledge concerning oranges.

Do you think that Beny More just sang those parts to the band members? Beny More's musical DIRECTOR was Generoso "El Tojo" Jimenez and I can assure you that Jimenez could not only read music, but he wrote out all those charts for the band. Beny could not have done what he did without Jimenez. You can be sure that if there is a band that's led by someone who does not read, that band has a musical director who can read, write and arrange. Some bands have a person who is the leader and a person who is the director.

African rhythms were first used in written music in Cuba during the early 1800's. if you did not have written music, you would not have salsa or jazz today. For every jazz giant who could not read, I can name you ten who did. It's not an either-or situation. It's fine if you don't read music. I myself refused to look at a piece of written music for well over a decade. I just have a problem with misrepresenting music history.
-David

[windhorse]

It's kind of funny to me that I was actually motivated to get finale so that I might do some translating in Western. Then, I realized everything was just 8th notes spread across the page! OK, so all the notes look the same.
Ha!! Then, you have to somehow show what is the handing... Well, then when you look at it, you realize how rediculous it is to start comparing systems!

Yeah, I'm with the folks that just want to go with B,M,T,S,&O ... It works just fine and you don't have to deal with someone's graphic symbology.
You know there is a fairly standardized method that drummers have been using for quite a while on the internet. It's block notation. I've seen it in two different forums, and very educated drummers were putting it out there very rapidly with ease.

BTW, I have my own for quick notation. Note below staff is right hand, and above is left hand.
I use the same rests and measures as Western, but the notes that are hollow are tones, the filled are basses, Xs are slaps, muffs are strike through, touches are a T. Works for me, but hey I gave up trying to convince anyone that it made more sense than having to write out handedness and strokes in addition to your timing notation..

:p



Edited By windhorse on 1204173007

[davidpenalosa]

I can't stand cluttered conga drum charts that use different lines on the staff or different noteheads to indicate R or L hand. I use a standard/box notation hybrid system, where only the open tones, slaps, mutes and bass are shown on the staff. The heel-tip and hands are indicated in the boxes directly below. You can look at the box notation only if you wish. I think it looks good. I hope to have my first volume out this year.

yet another system....
-David

[bongosnotbombs]

yeah, block notation is pretty good, it kind of reminds me how guitar players have developed their system of tabs, as a instrument specific form of notation.

block notation seems especially good for conga rhythms that are very repetitive, like folkloric rhythms, and for noting some of the standard variations.

less useful for someone playing timpani in an orchestra

[burke]

taikonoatama

Love the language analogy - especially the speaking with an accent part as it relates to somebody's playing. I'll take it a step further - take a new language mix in a couple other lanuages and cultures - ta da! You can end up with a whole new language - like creole.

That has happened with Congas in many cases - and no doubt is happening still.