Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby guarachon63 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:40 pm

Another vote in favor of CFN's "Ave María Morena"!

I agree it's an acquired taste, but keep listening BNB, there's a tremendous groove on that track and they are singing exactly how they want to hear it, it's just really, really funky. That's the way I like my yambú, and my guaguancó too for that matter, even though finding someone who can play it like that anymore is difficult.

I think "pushing" becomes "rushing" when the majority of the players in the group don't want to push...;)

Seriously though I for me what Thomas said about the intentionality of the players nails it.

When I started up a traditional septeto de son several years ago, we were all new at it, a few people had jazz or classical backgrounds, and we had lots of trouble agreeing on this. The tres player would set the tempo for the song, then say the guitarist might fight to maintain a steady tempo, while the bongo player felt it should be accelerating a bit, everyone had a different idea, which just killed the groove. We used to have arguments, "The tres sets the tempo" "Every one should listen to the clave and follow him" etc.

Then after much listening we realized that what really needed to happen was we all needed to first just agree on how the song should be played, then all listen to each other.

I learned guaguancó and rumba clave without ever actually having heard any rumba, and usually practiced along with a metronome and other novice players. And I can clearly remember the first time I tried to play clave along with a Muñequitos record - and promptly got left in the dust!
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby Facundo1 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:18 pm

[quote="davidpenalosa"]Jazz musicians distinguish between 1. playing behind the beat, 2. playing on the beat and 3. playing ahead of the beat (pushing). It's a good way to categorize it.

I think it's important to distinguish between pushing (playing ahead of the beat) and rushing, which means to increase the tempo—getting steadily faster. Musicians rush when they get excited and they drag when they get fatigued. If you push, you shouldn't rush; you should maintain the tempo. Personal practice with a metronome is very helpful with this.

Hello to all,

Yes, this is a very important topic. This is at the core of what drumming is all about which, is keeping and maintaining time to support the melody of the composition and soloist be they quinto or singers. I think David's comment above is right to the core of this issue. I learned this many years ago the hard way while playing base drum in an army band. The band master would constantly call me out saying I was dragging the tempo. He would say that I needed to play on top of the beat. I would then speed the temp up a bit but still with the same complaint. Now understand, I had been a well established conga and trap drummer long before being drafted into the service. That being the case, my ego told me this "asshole" just couldn't hear.

After about the third rehearsal it was clear to him that I did not understand what he was talking about. So he pulled me aside to the blackboard and drew a series of quarter notes on the musical staff. He then drew a line down from end of the ball of the note and said " this is where you are playing". That he said was behind the beat. He drew another line down from the middle of the note and said "that was on the beat". He then drew a line at the very beginning of the quarter note and said " that was on top of the beat. That there existed these three gradations in time keeping was a real revelation to me. I went back to the practice hall and tried to hear these with a metronome. What I then learned was that when you are truly hitting on top of the beat the click of the metronome can not be heard if the click is not too loud. Over time I was able to master not just playing on top of the beat but on the beat and behind the beat at any given tempo.

What the original poster is really talking about is drummers trying to play on top of the beat but in reality are actually moving the tempo up. This is a problem with a lot of drummers. Yes, there are time inside of a particular rumba that the tempo does increase slightly. There are times when the "beat" moves from behind to on and then to on top beat. However, this happens at the behest of the singer. Too many drummers don't really listen to the signer or to what they are playing in relation to the other drummers. Consequently, there is no real groove because there is no "pocket" formed for everyone to be in. Again, this is a very important topic and very worthy of understanding and mastery. Also, thanks to David for his insight on this.

My two cents,
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:26 pm

Lots of good points, I'm glad you guys like Conjunto de Folklorico's yambu, different
tastes make the world go round. I couldn't even listen all the way through it
the first time, I had to force myself to listen to that whole song. I prefer the
yambu recordings of Carlos Embale to that one of the Conjunto.

I know about the Conjunto de Folklorico, one of their founders taught me yambu.

Back to jazz drumming, is it not possible for the kit drummer to set a steady beat with
his feet for example and then play before or after the beat with his hands doing fills,
etc? How is it done for the kit player to be before or after the beat when they are the beat?

I think "pushing" becomes "rushing" when the majority of the players in the group don't want to push.

Now that's a good thought.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:54 pm

Facundo1 wrote:
After about the third rehearsal it was clear to him that I did not understand what he was talking about. So he pulled me aside to the blackboard and drew a series of quarter notes on the musical staff. He then drew a line down from end of the ball of the note and said " this is where you are playing". That he said was behind the beat. He drew another line down from the middle of the note and said "that was on the beat". He then drew a line at the very beginning of the quarter note and said " that was on top of the beat. That there existed these three gradations in time keeping was a real revelation to me. I went back to the practice hall and tried to hear these with a metronome. What I then learned was that when you are truly hitting on top of the beat the click of the metronome can not be heard if the click is not too loud. Over time I was able to master not just playing on top of the beat but on the beat and behind the beat at any given tempo.

Facundo

I feel a graphic coming on.............and here it is. Is this what you're saying facundo?
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:56 pm

Hi Geordie,

Back to jazz drumming, is it not possible for the kit drummer to set a steady beat with
his feet for example and then play before or after the beat with his hands doing fills,
etc?


Exactly. That's a trick I tell students. I express it differently, though; I say: lead with your right foot and imagine your bass drum is the bass player. Now you add the Hi Hat and give it a slight lay-back feel, like people clapping hands in a gospel church. Then accompany yourself with the right hand on the top cymbal and work from the backbeat of the left foot. (The snare drum is an extra chapter.) That's the fundament. But what do you do when you don't play the bass drum on all four beats? That leads to your second question:

How is it done for the kit player to be before or after the beat when they are the beat?


The beat is not the stroke (sorry for telling you what you already know). So the beat is in reality the felt metric pulse that may be installed by the guy who counts you off and is set forth until the tune is over (sometimes you hardly get rid of it afterwards). Basically everybody in the band is working off that felt pulse, while playing together at the same time, thus creating a very specific time feel. Some people think that the drummer is there to keep time for the other guys, like an expensive metronome. That's a misconception and the lowest common denominator that you can relate to. The drummer is there to make music, just like everybody else in the band. What would happen, if I wouldn't play melody and form, if I wouldn't sing a song on my instrument, and tell the other musicians that's their business?

I could sit in front of you and demonstrate how to play on top, or behind, and you would realize it, I promise; I did that once. Playing behind the beat is like there is a time cushion between the felt beat and the actual stroke. Often, British pop music is like that. It isn't wrong; it just gives you a special feeling. Many beginners do that incidentially, though. They have to learn how long it really takes for the stick, the hand and the arm, to make an upward movement and land back on the drum head at precisely the moment the stroke has to be there. This is especially crucial when trying to play off-beat.

Greetings,

Thomas
Last edited by Thomas Altmann on Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:23 pm

Thomas Altmann wrote:
How is it done for the kit player to be before or after the beat when they are the beat?


The beat is not the stroke (sorry for telling you what you already know). So the beat is in reality the felt metric pulse that may be installed by the guy who counts you off and is set forth until the tune is over (sometimes you hardly get rid of it afterwards). Basically everybody in the band is working off that felt pulse, while playing together at the same time, thus creating a very specific time feel. Some people think that the drummer is there to keep time for the other guys, like an expesive metronome. That's a misconception and the lowest common denominator that you can relate to. The drummer is there to make music, just like everybody else in the band. What would happen, if I wouldn't play melody and form, if I wouldn't sing a song on my instrument, and tell the other musicians that's their business?


Well, Thomas, please forgive me, my misconception was the drummer's left and right feet were the expensive metronome and that his hands were the musician making the music.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby taikonoatama » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:50 pm

Great discussion, thanks for bringing it up, Geordie.

I'm reminded of something I witnessed up a AfroCuba camp in Humboldt this past summer. It was a late-night rumba, on the last night of the weeklong workshops. Normally late in a session only the heavy hitters are playing, but being that it was the last night they invited some of the students to play with them. By "them" I mean Sandy Perez, Roman Diaz, Jesus Diaz, Reynaldo Gonzalez, John Santos, and some others. One of the more advanced students, currently a percussion major in university, got up to play palitos and just got eaten alive. He plays a really square, written-style 4-4 feel (and does the same when he plays clave). Jesus kept leaning back and telling him he was dragging. So he'd speed up. Jesus would tell him he was rushing. He'd slow down, thoroughly confused. Rey would glare at him with a wtf-expression.

I saw what the problem was but it wasn't exactly the time to explain it to him, and an explanation in the moment would have been little help. What was happening was that Rey's clave (standard Cuban style of playing) really pushed the beat in two particular places - the 2nd clave stroke and the 4th - without changing the overall tempo in any major way. Because these two clave strokes are also (or should also be) contained within the palitos rhythm the student was playing, the effect was that he was late in respect to Rey and everyone else, most noticeably clave, and it created a sense of dragging. Feeling the drag, but not understanding the real reason, he sped up the tempo. Oops.

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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:46 pm

Hi Geordie:

Well, Thomas, please forgive me, my misconception was the drummer's left and right feet were the expensive metronome and that his hands were the musician making the music.


Not exactly: The feet are more like the assistant drummers in a percussion ensemble, they can be at least. Nowadays the feet are generally liberated and integrated in linear phrasing with the hands, like bass drum and hi hat being equivalent tone elements. This evolution of the feet started with Be Bop in the 40's. Jim Chapin wrote his "Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer" in 1948, and this work probably started a lot.

Anyway, no reason to apologize. I didn't want to offend you, either.

Thomas
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby bongosnotbombs » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:16 am

Ah don't worry about it Thomas, I was joking a bit.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby CongaTick » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:34 pm

From the sidelines: Great discussion! :?
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby Facundo1 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:07 pm

Facundo[/quote]
I feel a graphic coming on.............and here it is. Is this what you're saying facundo?[/quote]

Thanks,

That is exactly what I was saying.

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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby windhorse » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:09 am

Lately, I've started to really groove with my long-time friend/study partner. I'm starting to understand what I think Thomas is saying here so eloquently. After 10-15 years of study and practice together we can now "converse" on support parts in a rumba/bembe. It's organic, but we put the work time in to get where it is organic. Point is,, it's not a one man operation. It's a group effort. No one man or thing owns the time.. It's shared by all of us, but not dictated by any of us. No, not even the clave. :? 8)

Thomas Altmann wrote:In Cuban music, if I compare Rumba ensembles for instance, the members of each band are playing their individual physical time feel. Naturally, the more they play together, the more they find ways how to "click" together, how to merge the various individual types of physical motorics and time concepts. I wouldn't believe they are intentionally playing on top of, or behind the beat. I can imagine that they try to produce the best foundation for the dancers. And each group is making it in a different way. I couldn't judge that any one band is better than the other.
-snip-
I find that, if you have a direction and you have intentionality, then you probably don't have to worry about dragging. If you are able to enjoy life, you are likely to take it easy and let the rhythm groove without rushing. If you have finesse, then you can go a step further and check out mean little tricks of micro-timing, way ahead of mere note values, and suggest or comment on an organic body motion - or create a "new animal" with another way to move and to breathe. Now, being able to combine all these components and thus provide any type of energy at any time is what to me is implied in the claim of being a professional artist.
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