Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

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Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:26 pm

Do any of you guys that play rumba, where everyone pushes, ever run
into the problem of rushing in other genres like jazz?
Some jazz guys I play really like the push, others less so.
Whats the line between pushing and rushing?
Have any of you guys ever run into this problem crossing genres? and how did you resolve it.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby JohnnyConga » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:36 pm

hate to say it but sometimes drugs and alcohol would do it....or some guys just have more energy than others.... i know in NYC where I'm from it;'s always about the "push" of the Rumba...despite any added individual ingredients....Rumba is meant to be played "uptempo" , it's designed that way..hence that push with energy...anybody else?...Johnny Conga...
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:58 pm

Jazz musicians distinguish between 1. playing behind the beat, 2. playing on the beat and 3. playing ahead of the beat (pushing). It's a good way to categorize it.

I think it's important to distinguish between pushing (playing ahead of the beat) and rushing, which means to increase the tempo—getting steadily faster. Musicians rush when they get excited and they drag when they get fatigued. If you push, you shouldn't rush; you should maintain the tempo. Personal practice with a metronome is very helpful with this.

The older Cubans sometimes play behind the beat. I've played bata with Lazaro Gallarraga, who can play waaaay behind the beat. Younger Cubans are more likely to play ahead of the beat, they can really push it.

When the Californian drummers met up with masters from the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional at a workshops in Mexico during the late 80s, the Cubans were struck by the fact that the North Americans played everything "too fast."

If you listen to the yambu (Ave Maria) on the first Conjunto Folklorico Nacional record you will hear quinto played behind the beat, to the point where it seems to stretch into triple-pulse.

As the elders pass away, I fear that the art of playing rumba and bata behind the beat will be a lost artform.
-David
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby windhorse » Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:04 pm

My teacher says there are two warning signs of a good rumbero. One is that his drums are tuned low, and the other is that he can play slowly with suave feel.

It seems that for our first 4 or 5 years of playing, my friends and I, played roughly and we would drag the beat. Not because we were good, but because we weren't.
So, we did what everyone does. We would practice everything by repeating patterns and constantly speeding them up.
Then, about 2 or 3 years ago, our teacher began challenging us to play slowly and keep a beat steady like a metronome. We were shocked to find that we constantly would speed things up! The rumba was always a freight train that would speed up and crash. He would make us play really slowly for really long periods of time. Now we're much better thanks to that practice!

On another note, just last night I went by an "Arabic Trance Dance" at one of our local churches. I know it's not "Jazz" but it's an analogue to a different genre.
A friend of mine who plays the Oud, sings, and runs the show wanted me to come by and see if I could become part of his ensemble.
What I witnessed was a stage cluttered with a bunch of people being drug into an abyss of slowness by a beginner djembe player and slow tempo music. I would have to say that it was quite horrible, though my friend was singing and playing his song right where it was supposed to be.
They never slowed down really,, but it felt too slow... As if that low djembe kept tugging backwards.
I'm convinced that It's how "on top of it" you are as a musician that creates the right "feel" for the tempo. You can play something the same speed, but drag, or perhaps the same speed and push. So, it's not TIMING as much as it is FEEL.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby congamyk » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:06 pm

This is a great discussion.
Music is emotional and when it's not it's good for nothing.

Rumba increases with intensity. That's been my learning experience.
It's a free musical form that expands and contracts with the soloist, singers and dancers.

Jazz.
If you are playing with real jazz players, there is a component in jazz known as "double-timing".
This may have been what you experienced, maybe not.
In "double-timing" the drummer will sense the soloist is pushing the wall of notes he's playing and will intensify the beat to nearly double the BPM.
During this the drummer and band may even go from swing into a Latin feel on drums... or... from Latin/bossa into an intense swing to "push" or compel the soloist into improvising even more notes. As the solo contracts, the drummer and band will come back to the original BPM and feel. This is the only time a jazz tune should change tempo or speed up - to deliberately change the dynamics of the solo being played.

Playing "behind the beat" refers to the soloist (horn, singer, other) only. It's a dynamic invented by greats like Lester Young to create a relaxed and soulful feeling. I can't think of a reason why a jazz drummer would ever deliberately play behind the beat or speed up a tune.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:46 pm

congamyk wrote:Rumba increases with intensity.
Playing "behind the beat" refers to the soloist (horn, singer, other) only. [...] I can't think of a reason why a jazz drummer would ever deliberately play behind the beat or speed up a tune.


Any capable jazz drummer can play behind the beat, It's a standard mode of jazz drumming. Elvin Jones was a master of the technique.

Rumba, salsa and bata often increase tempos slightly as a song progresses.
-David
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby congamyk » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:28 pm

The term "playing behind the beat" was originally used for those playing the melody or soloing.
Some of Lester Young's melody interpretations and solos epitomized "playing behind the beat".
In jazz swing the drummer's ride plays just slightly behind the bass note - so slight it's hardly noticeable.
This produces the swing effect.
The drummer is not playing behind the beat - the bass player is actually playing just ahead of the beat.
This juxtaposition between bass note and ride cymbal is what you are refering to.

If you read the notation, everyone is counting and playing WITH the drummer's ride, not the bass walk line.
The music is felt and played with the drummers ride.
That is the beat, not the bass note. The drummer's ride is the Beat/Tempo.
That emphasis is static and doesn't change.

The term playing behind the beat doesn't apply to this thread anyway.
The thread is talking about BPM/Tempo - not technique.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:51 pm

I don't question how the term originated, or the use of the drum/bass interaction you describe, but if you are asserting that playing behind-the-beat is not a technique employed by jazz drummers, then I have to say that you are misinformed.

Check out this demonstration of the technique by Conor Guilfoyle, drummer for John Abercrombie, Larry Coryell, David Liebman, Sonny Fortune, Joe Lovano, Mark Levine, Mal Waldron and Bobby Carcasses—to name a few. He's also the author of "Rhythmic Reading" and "Odd Meter Clave":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90vnMmISi4M

Conor: "A demo of playing behind the beat with a metronome. Inspired by the late great Elvin Jones who left us scrambling in his footsteps."

It's quite clear to me that Conor is playing behind-the-beat. How do you hear it?
-David
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby congamyk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:11 am

Contest, context, context.
That video has nothing to do with speeding up the tempo of a jazz song.
And it's hard on the ears. :roll:
It's simply implying ghost notes and inflection but then always come back to the same BPM/tempo.
That kind of playing doesn't groove to me. It's a technique that isn't appealing.
Rather than calling that playing behind the beat it should say "playing around the beat."

Sure a few Jazz drummers use it (incorrectly IMO).
And it's maybe the same drummers that play "Latin" style that's neither Brazilian or Cuban - it's a ridiculous bastardization of neither.
It's a jazz term whose origin and application was for soloists and singers.
Here's an example of playing behind the beat phrasing - Billie Holiday and Lester Young who both used it to create their own style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IyuG_2jXsE

Another youtube demo of playing behind the beat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGv3MYXzxus
You have a beat (DRUMS) - then you have another instrument playing just behind it (soloist).
This is the correct explanation and the only credible one.

OK... back to "pushing or rushing" a tune (title)
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:50 am

congamyk wrote:That video has nothing to do with speeding up the tempo of a jazz song.


That's right. I didn't say it did.

You keep talking about the origin of the term, which again, I'm not disputing. The origins of the term have not limited its use over the past several decades.

"A few drummers use it"? That statement reveals a lack of experience on your part. I've heard jazz drummers say the term and employ the technique for over 30 years. Playing in a rhythm section supporting John Handy, the bass player filled us in concerning how Handy liked the section play—behind, on or ahead of the beat.

"The slackness is a sly deception—Eno falls metronomically behind the beat..."—Stylus Magazine
http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/ ... ummers.htm

"Matt's playing on the Brandi record is great, a most solid groove that reminds me of the late Al Jackson. A bit behind the beat and FAT."—Classic Drummer Blog
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuse ... d=76877416

"I love the lingo of drumming... on the beat" and "on top of the beat" mean two different things. On top means "before" whereas means 'in the center.' 'Behind the beat' is exactly what it sounds like.
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/000338.php

Some people like to play their parts behind the beat. [...] The drummer from Little Feat is the king of this style, and it ends up being a very relaxed, comfortable feeling that he gets across. Notice, however, that he never “drags” - that would mean that he was slowing down, which he is not. People often assume that the “beat” is something dictated by the drummer, that the drummer is by definition playing “on the beat”, and that if they play ahead of the drummer they are automatically playing ahead of the beat. In most situations, this is true - the drums set the rhythmic foundation, and the other musicians adjust to it - but it is not true of every situation.—Steve Anison (Modern Drummer Magazine 10/97)
http://www.anisman.com/steve/samd02.htm

Your definition "is the correct explanation and the only credible one."?? According to whom? You. Anybody else?
-David
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby congamyk » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:33 am

I'm going to go listen to some Eddie Harris.
Geordie I hope you swing with the best of them!
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:59 am

EDITED

I'm sorry for any offense I've caused.
-David
Last edited by davidpenalosa on Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:49 am

Very insightful discussion guys.

As a conga player in jazz I mostly follow the drummer's high hat, that's what I hear the most,
but other times I follow the bass drum on the one. When I play without a drummer, just a bass,
no one tells me I'm rushing

A funny discussion I had recently with a drummer " I said, I like your bass hit,
it tells me where the one is, and he says, I like your slap, it tells me where the 2 is."

Anyways, if I'm following the drummer and pushing, can't it be perceived as
rushing the song by the other musicians? But I'm trying to follow the trap drummer. So if the
songs speeds up, is it possibly the other musicians trying to adapt to my push inherited from rumba?


If you listen to the yambu (Ave Maria) on the first Conjunto Folklorico Nacional record you will hear quinto played behind the beat, to the point where it seems to stretch into triple-pulse.

Man, to me that whole song is a train wreck, seriously, off key and no groove. That quinto is an example of a soloist playing behind the beat, I'm more
concerned with a timekeeper role pushing the beat, like the clave. How can a clave player push or play behind the beat, when it is the beat in a sense, and not be dragging or rushing? I'm referring mainly to the 1st and 5th hits of clave.
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:38 am

bongosnotbombs wrote:
If you listen to the yambu (Ave Maria) on the first Conjunto Folklorico Nacional record you will hear quinto played behind the beat, to the point where it seems to stretch into triple-pulse.

Man, to me that whole song is a train wreck, seriously, off key and no groove. That quinto is an example of a soloist playing behind the beat, I'm more concerned with a timekeeper role pushing the beat, like the clave. How can a clave player push or play behind the beat... [?]


When I first heard that tune, I did not find it attractive either. Now I really like it. I think it's an acquired taste, but it's also representative of mid-20th century Havana-style yambu. Remember, this is the national folkloric group of Cuba. They take their presentation of Cuba's folklore very seriously. This tune grooves in the old style.

As far as the clave pattern itself being metrically altered, have you checked out congaboard member James' webpage on rumba clave?

http://rumbaclave.blogspot.com/

You can clearly see that clave strokes are intentionally displaced from their precise position within the pulse "grid."
-David
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Re: Rumba and Jazz: Pushing vs. Rushing

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:56 am

Guys,

there are so many ways to make a band or a piece of music swing; it's virtually impossible to list all the parameters that define good rhythm, or any particular groove, regardless of the style of music you are playing ... or analysing. As a jazz drummer, I have analysed the personal styles of certain drummers even more than in the Cuban field. Elvin is always the first example for playing behind the beat that is mentioned. Mel Lewis might be another one, although no two drummers can be more different from one another than those two. Then we have Kenny Clarke who is dancing right on the beat, almost like the 4-on-the-floor Swing guys, only lighter. Definitely in front, or on top would be someone like Louis Hayes, at least back in the seventies. But how would you classify Billy Higgins? He had such a broad time feel - it is so dizzying; like with Mel Lewis sometimes, I can hardly imagine how and why this works after all. I have tried very often to get his feel; what he created was like a static and steric time-space. I love that, but it's hard to achieve. You need a very strong bass player on your side!

I suppose that's one of the important points: an ensemble that is pulling the music in one direction. If you have to play with people who don't have a clue, a vision, and the experience to put it to work, then all these things are senseless.

In Cuban music, if I compare Rumba ensembles for instance, the members of each band are playing their individual physical time feel. Naturally, the more they play together, they more they find ways how to "click" together, how to merge the various individual types of physical motorics and time concepts. I wouldn't believe they are intentionally playing on top of, or behind the beat. I can imagine that they try to produce the best foundation for the dancers. And each group is making it in a different way. I couldn't judge that any one band is better than the other. Personally, I'm not really fond of the kind of collective improvisation that is cluttering the background of the quinto player, but that's personal preference, and moreover it has nothing to do with time feel.

I find that, if you have a direction and you have intentionality, then you probably don't have to worry about dragging. If you are able to enjoy life, you are likely to take it easy and let the rhythm groove without rushing. If you have finesse, then you can go a step further and check out mean little tricks of micro-timing, way ahead of mere note values, and suggest or comment on an organic body motion - or create a "new animal" with another way to move and to breathe. Now, being able to combine all these components and thus provide any type of energy at any time is what to me is implied in the claim of being a professional artist.

I find the time feel of the CFN's "Yambú" sensational. Also, most jazz drummers, I mean those who made history, are never expected to change or adapt their personal time feel to a particular performance. "Play this like Tony Williams" is either an amateur expression, a task for a percussion student, or a challenging order at a studio session (although the latter would never call for a Tony Williams style, clearly). If you don't like the time feel of one drummer, you call somebody else. The other guy will get work with another group that digs exactly what he is doing. When people ask me who is my favourite drummer, I cannot tell them; everybody just plays the way he is - hopefully. In a way, I like everybody who is honest and human. I want to "smell" a rhythm.

Thomas
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