What is Salsa?

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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby davidpenalosa » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:53 pm

niallgregory wrote:... the salsa crowd would rather dance to a cd than a live group .Any change in rhythm would completely ruin the vibe for them :oops: Not sure what its like in the states ...


I think what I refer to as the salsa aerobics movement is world-wide. It's all about choreography routines and is not very connected to the music. Some of the dance teachers in my town don't teach their students how to dance in-time. As a result, it's impossible to dance with most of the women on the dance floor. Very frustrating! :cry:

I attended a two-week dance course at Cuba's National School of the Arts (ENA) in Havana in 1997. There were salsa dance teachers from all around the world in attendance. The class instructors put all of those teachers in the beginning class because they couldn't dance in-time. The beginning class began by moving our feet and hips to the clave rhythm, then moving our torso to the clave rhythm. On the second day we moved our entire body to the clave rhythm. The actual dance steps were not shown until the students could move their upper and lower body in accordance with the clave pattern.

The music is a lot more fun to dance to when you are connected to it.
-David
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby pavloconga » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:29 pm

refer back to my original post. this post can be deleted . my bad
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby caballoballo » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:46 pm

Salsa is a mix of rhytms, it was created like David mentioned by Fania as a marketing, yes it evolve from Cuban Son but lots of different influences were added by PuertoRicans,Cubans,Jews,Italians,Mexicans,Colombian,Venezuelan to name a few. When I said a mix, is for example how a Salsa Theme may have Bomba & Plena or jibaro music incorporated as well of some R & B or some rock added to the flavor or some other rhytm from the folklore of the country where the band is from. Cuban music which is the root of salsa sound a lot difference from the one play from P.R, N.Y, Colombia and Venezuela. I as a Dj have lots of Cuban music,Colombian Salsa,Venezuelan Salsa and of course N.Y & P.R, Cuban style is different even to dance.

The Conga will play the basic Tumbao and the Bongó will play in and out of the Martillo accentuating the singer lyrics. Then during the montuno the conga may improvise from the tumbao to add flavor to the cuisine. The Bongocero Campana will lead the tempo. I remember in another post how JC & BNB were questioning what else the Bongocero could do other than play Martillo, HUMMMMM cojelo que ahi te va. In this post the Conga salsa player plays only straight tumbao,the Bongocero is the flavor added to the rhytm and then during the montuno he lets go of the Bongó and dances with his campana . Have you people seen how Roberto Roena dance and play campana ?

Dancing salsa, here in the beautiful Island of P.R first you are going to learn the CLAVE because you will dance in sync with her.You may hear a count like 1,2,3 & 5,6,7 . 4 and 8 are transitions points in the rhytm so all 8 counts of the clave are present. Some people may dance in one, others like N.Y & P.R style will dance on 2. On 1 means you step with your left foot on the count 1 of the clave or 3/2 clave, on 2 you step with your left foot on the 2 count or like in 2/3 clave. I hope I am not too far from the true on the last sentence. This is salsa dance 101.

To me the first thing a Salsa Musician ( I dance in clave ,on 2 style ) should learn is to dance, that way the dancer mind and approach to the music will be understood by the on stage musician. Why I said this is because some times no matter which band is playing, from the point of view of the musicians they may play a theme that has all kind of variations and they will enjoyed but for the dancer on the floor was BS theme.
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby Omelenko1 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:14 pm

When Mongo heard the term "Salsa" we became furious, I remeber an ocassion where Mongo, Pacheco and Eddie Palmieri got into a discussion over the term. Mongo said "que Salsa ni un carajo, eso todo es guaracha, mambo, son montuno, musica Cubana. Salsa es lo que yo le echo al arroz blanco por arriba". Mongo stated "is all Cuban music, son, guaracha, mambo. Salsa is what I pour over my white rice". Salsa was invented by Massuci as a commercial term.

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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby burke » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:03 pm

When I posted this way back when it was prompted by that pbs latin music in USA series and the explaination (or lack thereof) of what Salsa actually was.

Since then I consulted my own resources (as I should have before posting) and found the whole section in Ed Uribe's "Afro-Cuban Percussion and Drum set" titled: 'Arrangements,Charts, Notation, and Terminology'. The whole section is about who plays what and when in a "Salsa" chart and how to read it. With the help of my far more musically educated wife, I learned DC al Coda means and how and when to flip back and forth ... a bit heavy but highly satisfying when I finally 'got it'. For self taught readers like me it's hard but with a guide you can get it and come out the other end with a much better idea of how those squiggles work!

Thank you Ed
(even though you play your examples too fast and not nearly long enough)
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby TONE74 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:13 am

The thing I'm interested in finding out about this topic is what was added by the "PuertoRicans,Jews,Italians,Mexicans,Colombian,Venezuelan to name a few" that wasn't there before. I'm not talking about the adding of lets say a guaguanco, bomba, or cumbia pattern layered on the song but as far as the structure of the music. I can hear those sections but then they always go back to son. Was Arsenio the one that laid the foundation (piano, conga, campana, etc )vs traditional son or did other people contribute? If so what were their contributions? I even hear the mambo style was created in NY but wasn't Perez Prado and the other guys already playing it in Cuba and even Mexico before coming to NY. I'm sure there must be many contributions since this goes way back. It would be interesting knowing what they were. Thanks
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:10 am

Tone 74,
Those are a lot of questions. You should read Cuba and its Music by Ned Sublet. Although several different nationalities claim salsa as their own, the musical structures have remained Cuban.
-David
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby korman » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:13 am

Unfortunately Sublette's book stops at the end of 50ties (Cuban revolution). It would be interesting to read the second volume (I think he promised to write it, but the next book that came out from him was on New Orleans)
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby Jibaro » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:14 pm

Another good resource is Cuban Fire by Isabelle Leymarie. She cites early uses of the term Salsa, as far back as he 1920s (The Echale Salsita reference), the 1940's in other songs (la salsa me gustó, and Salsa y Sabor), and a 1940's band called Los Salseros. She also cites musicians using the word to describe the music and has a quote saying Richie Ray introduced the term to the USA in the mid 1960's; so Masucci didn't invent the word by any means, but he and Johnny Pacheco really popularized and capitalized on it.

There's also an interesting chart showing evolution and mixing of styles that created new styles... nothing about Viet Namese influences though.

Image

Reads like a reference book including musical notation; no story line at all but great info.
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R
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby AlexV » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:30 pm

This is one of those topics that if you're reading the comments section of certain bands/grupos orq's on youtube all you'll read are comments from angry Cubanos defending what they feel has been stolen from them. Everyone took to Cuban music going way back.It was natural that the music would evolve eventually. In my mind when I listen to music from lets say the fifties into the early 60's Cortijo y su Combo canta Ismael Rivera is where I feel the first real change came. Ismael and Cortijo brought a swing that I feel was not around prior to then. I don't mean just the rhythmn of Cortijo but the overall feel from the way Ismael as a sonero and dancer just came in and out when ever he damn well pleased. Ismael sang whatever you wanted better than anyone else. The word dynamic comes to mind. But don't misunderstand my feelings. He sang guaracha, bolero, plena bomba, guaguanco son muntono, rumba etc and he didn't invent any of these and none of them are called salsa. But may I dare say that this was a part of the Puerto Rican contribution? Was there not a change in the flow of the music after this time? Another change is what everyone wants to call the NY contribution/experience. After the revolution all the musicians went to NY everyone knows that. But Ny was filled with Ricans who obviously loved the music of their homeland and las Antillas. It was natural that the music would combine and evolve. What did the Puerto Ricans in NY add? I'd say the streets basically. El Barrio, hood elements, vocabulary, griminess lol- see Willie Colon and Hector Lavoe. But other than that to me it's all fundamento Cuba.
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby TONE74 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:27 pm

" But may I dare say that this was a part of the Puerto Rican contribution? Was there not a change in the flow of the music after this time? "

AlexV, I agree 100% on that one, I would say this is the biggest contribution outside of Cuba by anyone. I also think that this flow or what ever you wanna call it (NY> PR ) also went 180 and back to Cuba and had influence there too. There was a callejero flow there already though. I think that each country where salsa was or is big has their own little thing that you hear and say hmmm. Colombia has a sound kind of a Sonora Matancera related flow too that I pick up in a lot of their music. Puerto Rico has theirs which I think is the bench mark that all others except Cuba follow but still use on ocassion since each band tries to have a sello there. One that I'm very big on is the African salsa. They give it a flavor that is very unique cause of the instruments or something that gives it a really organic or whatever you call it, can't really express it. I even like some of their covers of Cuban music more than the originals. Also don't sleep on Peru.
What my question really is about though is what additions were made like lets put this campaneo over here and the piano tumbao is done this way over this part of the clave etc. that the Cubans din't bring originally and was made standard.
I make it clear that I'm here to learn not to teach anybody anything this is purely my personal opinion and observations. :|

The thing on youtube is funny as hell, you hear people claiming all kinds of s..t, Lmao...

David Penalosa thanks for the reference. I'm looking forward to your book on clave also, will pick it up soon.
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby davidpenalosa » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:29 am

TONE74 wrote:" ... my question . . . is what additions were made like lets put this campaneo over here and the piano tumbao is done this way over this part of the clave etc. that the Cubans din't bring originally and was made standard. David Penalosa thanks for the reference. I'm looking forward to your book on clave also, will pick it up soon.


Thanks. You won't regret buying The Clave Matrix. My second book Rumba Quinto; The Pinnacle of Afro-Cuban Improvisation will be out next summer. I'm tempted to title it 301 Quinto Licks. :)

In answer to your question, in a fundamental sense, there were no additions of that type. That shows me the power of the Cuban genres, but also their pliability, "speaking" to a larger Caribbean and really, global community. The exception to what I've just said of course is the adaptation of the Puerto Rican bomba and plena into salsa. There has been a considerable amount of interest in blending those PR genres with jazz lately, but historically, traditional Puerto Rican music did not become a common element in salsa. The dominance of Cuban popular music in Latin America is analogous to the dominance of African American music worldwide.
-David
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby jaemacho » Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:26 pm

Everything that has been said is no doubt true. I think what was left out is how Nuyoricans wanted to present this cuban based music with a NYC vibe. They were all young and wanted to make son montuno hip for their time, like they tried to do with boogaloo. The NYC element made the music dirty and raw. But the term stuck and now Salsa is the branded term. This is just my opinion and it's why I stay listening to 1970's salsa.
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Re: What is Salsa?

Postby Anonimo » Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:57 am

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