rhythms adapted to congas, and their relation to clave

[konkoba98]

A couple questions for you academic minded posters who's posts on this forum have been extremely helpful and entertaining. I'm an 'intermediate' player who discovered the drum later in life and have not had the luck of being surrounded by other players and teachers and has therefore learned much by an academic approach from whatever resources I could get my hands on. One of my favorite activities in addition to studying well established rhythms and techniques, is to create and invent novel styles that are usually inspired by rhythms from other instruments and musics and adapting them to the congas and making them as 'Cuban' as I can given what I know of Cuban conga technique, bata, clave concepts, etc etc. One that I'm currently working on is bringing up some interesting questions for me. Thanks in advance for any and all who reply. FYI, I've already read pretty much all the forums here regarding these topics I will bring up in addition to literature written or referenced by some of you, ex: The Clave Matrix, etc. Thanks also for all of that and if there are answers to my questions that I've overlooked, please refer me.

I'll try to video myself and post this rhythm asap but for now I'll just have to notate it as best I can.

It is triple meter, lasts 2 clave or standard bell patterns, and is played split hand similar to how many of us would play a bembe adaptation on 3 drums w/ the left hand on quinto and the right hand playing the conga and tumba, except with this one the left hand is on the middle tuned drum (to the left side), and the right hand plays the low drum (right side) and high drum (center). It is based off or inspired by 2 West African dundun/djembe rhythms, 1. the sangban part to Abondon 2. the Dundun/Sangban melody of Kurubadon (from the Dununba family). This adaptation is obviously not meant to be representative of these rhythms at all and I've taken artistic license to change things a bit when adapting them to congas.

mid conga (left/nondom hand):
|| S . O S . O S . O S . O ||


high conga (small letters) and TUMBA (CAPS):
|| o O . O . O . O o . o . . s . s . s . O o . o . ||

This, again, is an adaptation of multiple parts from 2 different rhythms, see those rhythms if you'd like to see where the adaptation came from, I won't bother trying to notate them for now. The reason I used these particular parts (Abondon sangban and Kurubadon dun/sangban melody) was because they had similar rhythmic structures that crossed over 2 clave/bells. The common phrase tying the 2 together was the following pattern which can be related to clave/standard bell in a variety of ways (displacement, direction of clave, shift of a note, etc). This pattern can be found in the high drum/low drum pattern notated above and is the defining characteristic of this rhythm (the mid drum part is a more simple time keeping pattern).

|| . X . X . X . . X . X . || repeated twice bc the drum melody repeats after 2 clave lengths
|| 1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . ||

Again, this can be related to clave in many ways.
1. son clave displaced by 1 beat
2. the latent notes of son clave
3. a 2/3 son clave w/ the 3rd clave note displaced
4. etc etc,

So, after all that rambling, here is my dilemma:

1. Since most W. African rhythms follow a 'clave concept' as defined by some of you guys ( a Q&A of rhythmic tension and stability), how is that expressed in this rhythm using westerners terminology of cuban clave... is this 2/3 son, 2/3 rumba, 3/2 son, 3/2 rumba? How do you hear it? Is this question even relevant?
2. It seems to me that it is 2/3, or that the tension arises in the 2nd part of phrase, the " O o . o " part, and answered by the first part of the phrase. Recall that it is a 2 clave long phrase, so you see the " O o . o " part twice. I don't recall any 6/8 or 12/8 Cuban folkloric patterns (conga, bata, other) that have this 2/3 feel. Come to think of it, I don't know if there are any 6/8 or 12/8 popular pieces that are 2/3... but I may be unaware. Are there any? Am I wrong here?
3. Now that I have a pattern, I want to begin developing phrases and variations and inserting licks, etc. Are there any bata or other rhythms that share some of the rhythmic principles of this rhythm and could serve as good examples to develop phrasing?
4. I'm assuming that many of the African rhythms that were brought to Cuba and subsequently adapted to the conga (bembe, abakua, makuta, etc) as it became a more popular instrument, underwent a similar process that I'm attempting (albeit much better and more natural than my attempts). We see it now with bata rhythms adapted to congas. While many of those who were/are instrumental in how these adaptations occur may not use the academic or western approach that my questions are based on, is this not what has happened and continues to happen, at least roughly?

Colin

[konkoba98]

And question #5:

Should the 'standard clave patterns' that we all know be used or referenced here? Why not just use the displaced pattern that the rhythm is based on? Would Cubans kick me off the island if I were to play this rhythm and play a displaced clave with it? Are there some other 'timeline patterns' that are found and accepted in Cuban music that are related to clave... like some variations of the 12/8 bell pattern played in bembe, guiro, etc? How much latitude could one have when changing clave... if we are capable of doing such a thing?

Thanks again

[davidpenalosa]

|| . X . X . X . . X . X . ||
|| 1 . . 2 . . 3 . . 4 . . ||

1. Since most W. African rhythms follow a 'clave concept' as defined by some of you guys ( a Q&A of rhythmic tension and stability), how is that expressed in this rhythm using westerners terminology of cuban clave...?
2. I don't know if there are any 6/8 or 12/8 popular pieces that are 2/3... but I may be unaware. Are there any? Am I wrong here?
3. Now that I have a pattern, I want to begin developing phrases and variations and inserting licks, etc. Are there any bata or other rhythms that share some of the rhythmic principles of this rhythm and could serve as good examples to develop phrasing?
4. I'm assuming that many of the African rhythms that were brought to Cuba and subsequently adapted to the conga (bembe, abakua, makuta, etc) as it became a more popular instrument, underwent a similar process that I'm attempting (albeit much better and more natural than my attempts). We see it now with bata rhythms adapted to congas. While many of those who were/are instrumental in how these adaptations occur may not use the academic or western approach that my questions are based on, is this not what has happened and continues to happen, at least roughly?

Hi Colin,
Here are my answers to your questions. (Please note that I earlier mistook your displaced "clave" to be a timeline. I see now that you meant it to be a drum pattern. I've edited my answers accordingly.)

1. The displaced "clave" you show would fit perfectly within a 2-3 clave framework. It's the standard seven-stroke bell pattern minus two strokes, starting on the two-side.

2. 12/8 (or 6/8) popular pieces in 2-3 clave are rare. I believe that Mark Levine wrote one though.

3. The first four strokes are four of the most important strokes of the abakuá lead drum bonkó (an obvious counter-clave part).

4. Roughly yes.

-David

[davidpenalosa]

And question #5: Should the 'standard clave patterns' that we all know be used or referenced here?

not a bad idea

Why not just use the displaced pattern that the rhythm is based on? Would Cubans kick me off the island if I were to play this rhythm and play a displaced clave with it

The displaced clave would definitely get negative feedback since it would sound off-time to anyone familiar with Cuban music.

Are there some other 'timeline patterns' that are found and accepted in Cuban music that are related to clave... like some variations of the 12/8 bell pattern played in bembe, guiro, etc?

Of course. There are many different timeline patterns related to clave that are used in Cuba. It seems like this is an area where you could use some more study.

How much latitude could one have when changing clave... if we are capable of doing such a thing?

The young Cuban musicians are at the cutting-edge of bending the parameters of clave. Dafnis Prieto is doing some incredible stuff with clave. Again, in the case of your displaced clave, it would sound off-time to anyone familiar with Cuban music. That could be part of its appeal, depending upon the context you use it in.
-David

[windhorse]

There is pretty much anything you can dream up as a pattern already in Folkloric Cuban. But, the clave patterns are very limited. Probably the one that would give you the most room to play within is the Arara pattern
uh-one, uh-three, uh-one, uh-three.. You might have heard some songs with just clapping as the percussion, and that's it.
I've heard some crazy bembes, or whatever you would want to call it when played with a particular Orisha.
Each Orisha has it's own pattern on bata, but when people reproduce this on congas - seemingly, just about anything goes! There are sets you'll hear that are Arara, some that are Matanzas from a particular group, and another group from Matanzas will play a very different way,, and that's not even mentioning other places - like Havana.

Yes, they're based on African rhythms, but you should realize that it's probable that most of the stuff you hear from modern Africa is further evolved musically than whatever you hear from Cuban folkloric. In other words, The Cuban Folkloric ear is probably going to be more concerned with "how does it fit with clave?"

It would be good to include a sound or vid clip for our analysis. BTW, the more you do of this kind of mental math with writing out and sharing your thoughts, the better you'll be for it!
Keep sharing!

another Dave

[konkoba98]

Thanks for your responses. I'm trying to get a video up for you guys to see but I'm having some trouble uploading/converting the file.

David, do you happen to know the Mark Levine song that is 2/3? I've got most of his Latin Tinge stuff but can't think of one that I recognized as 2/3 clave in triple meter.

[davidpenalosa]

Colin,
Check out Mark's "You & the Night and the Music" from Mark Levine & the Latin Tinge. It begins with 6/8 in 2-3.

By the way, it's triple-pulse or (triple subdivision) structure, not triple meter. Afro-Cuban 12/8 (or 6/8) is duple meter because like its 4/4 correlatives, it's based on a duple beat scheme: 1 2 3 4.
-David