Keeping track of a solo's length

[bongosnotbombs]

How do you guys keep track of the length of your solo in jazz or salsa?

I find it hard to hear a bass's chord progression in jazz ,
and even harder to count, when I'm taking a solo past 8 or 4 bars.

If these are skills I simply need to develop more, that's cool. I was just wondering
if there was some other techniques around.

[Mike]

It is good to arrange some signposting with the rest of the band, for example accents
on drumset, a brass lick that indicates the end of 16 bars etc.

I also try to count with my foot, but you often get carried away as you try to focus
on your solo playing, so I am with you there.

[congamyk]

To be an effective jazz soloist you must know the song(s) you are playing and should shape your solo over that song(s).
I use the same standard in salsa bands I've played with unless an arrangement specifies otherwise.

Unless pre-arranged, soloists are assumed to play through the complete song at least once, whether it's 12, 16, 24 ,etc bars... you play at least that.
Play the number of bars to the song and the band should know where you're at and when you'll be done.
This is what the jazz drummer is doing - or at least should be doing.

.. my solo of "Blue Bossa" playing through it twice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlMXLiJ3NSI

[bongosnotbombs]

That's good advice guys.
How about when you're called onto a gig and
only know what songs you are playing when the
leader calls it out? Songs you haven't heard before?

[Tonio]

Jazz could be in 12 bar format (blues chord progression) or in multiples of 8, 16 etc. So you should know off the lead sheet (if used). If going by without lead sheets, work it out beforehand, or learn the format.
If you're winging it, with sit ins, jam session etc, you should get to the point that you can feel 8 or 16 bars. It should come intuitively, but could depend on the tune and how well you know it. Though you could be indifferent if the other band members have a different interpretation of the tunes also. In jazz bands I have seen some folks(non percussionists) assume you will take at least the song's full length, yet some may think 8 or 16 bars will do the trick. Or you could take the chorus section to solo over. So there are options depending on the tune. You should work it out before hand if possible, other times you need to know how the rest of the solos are constructed-either the full tune or partial, and follow suit.

In salsa its pretty much the same. It could be based on the tune or interpretation of the tune. Just remember many salsa tunes could oppose the clave law and evens it out with a break.

Beyond that work to feel 8 or 16 bars and theirs multiples, Its good to have a sign language rapport for signaling you're done, or return to the head on a all out extended solo. If the other musicians know your style they may know you're signaling by the way you are playing or using the clave pattern (X2)also works too.


T

[ABAKUA]

In my 10 piece salsa band which I co-direct, I will often randomly call solo's for any of the instruments, be it myself on congas, or timbales, horns etc.. depending on the track we are playing or particular section.
As for length, we keep it open, letting the musician go for it, whoever is soloing will give the queue for the outro to the solo, and the timbaleo will count/queue in the following section.

If I am freelancing with another band, they usually adopt the same practise, allowing me to go till I give the signal, alternatively I will look out for the drummer/timbalero or bandleader to queue me out.

[Thomas Altmann]

I'm with Tonio emphasizing that 4-, 8-, and 16-bar-structures must be internalized, no matter what tune you are playing. From there you can add or deduct for any uneven phrasing. I also think of adding blocks of 8 or 16 bars to fill 32-bar forms.

In order to learn feeling 8-bar phrases, I vaguely imagine a spoken phrase intonation with a 2+2+4 "melodic" structure that would work over any tune, whether known to me or not. The secret is - as so often - to listen to what you don't actually hear around you.

If I get lost, I might watch the guys who meanwhile have had the time to count more exactly than I did, and when they lift up their horns or whatever, I proceed to finish. In case they were lost, I would give some strong indications (standard closing patterns) or even count them back in. If guys are not familiar with Latin contratiempo solo fashion, they sometimes come in on a weird beat; but I can't help that. The only problem that can arise is when some players are off, while the rest of the band goes with me.

As some of you know, I also play drum set in Jazz settings. Jazz people love playing chorus forms, and they would expect that ability from a drummer as well. As a matter of fact, drummer Max Roach insisted that the other musicians followed his chorusses as accurately as anyone else's, because he had that emancipation idea going on ("equal rights for the drums"). Anyway, from the earliest times on, any instrumentalist had to follow the melody (or later the harmonic changes) of the tune he would improvise upon, and therefore know it sufficiently! Musicians of any genre (yes, Latin music, too) would expect you to know at least a standard repertoire in that particular style. Some musicians may be discriminating, and if you don't know your repertoire of standard compositions and their different versions, they would write you off as if you didn't know your rhythms and standard cierres.

However, I find that I improvise in a different way in a free form situation of an ad-lib length, which is more common in Latin music with it's harmonic cycles of 2 to 4 measures, than I would do in a Jazz chorus of 12, 16, or 32 measures. In Jazz, I tend to solo more in, or along, even phrases, while in Latin music I would spin forth something like "evolving rhythmic movements" that develop their own logic and mechanics and would not necessarily resolve after an even number of measures. In these situations I act in the same way as Abakua described in his post.

It is my personal opinion that, while instruments of definite pitch find a meaningful creative potential in their constant reference to melody, harmony or mode, instruments of indefinite pitch (such as the drums) can tap their resources of expression more effectively without relating to chord changes. I cannot play chords or melodic lines on my drums, anyway. So after having proven the ability to play chorusses over many years, I sometimes dare to afford playing open solos instead, which give me as a percussionist an adequate artistic freedom alongside the other instrumentalists. Even in a relatively conservative style as traditional New Orleans Jazz, they let me do that; they say they can hear when I'm about to finish my own "temporary solo form". I confirm their feeling with a short glance, though. When everybody hears, thinks and plays MUSIC, a lot of things suddenly become possible!

Thomas

[bongosnotbombs]

Thomas,
What do you mean by playing "chorus forms". Is it playing the structure of a chorus, like I did
recently with Sonny Rollins' St. Thomas, or by hitting the "so what" phrase on the tune of the same
name, for example? Or something else?

[Thomas Altmann]

What do you mean by playing "chorus forms".

Hi Geordie,

I meant playing chorusses, staying within the form, maintaining the structure established by the harmonic cycle of a tune.

TA

[Derbeno]

I got this dvd that I have not yet begun to work on in earnest. This thread has given me the motivation to get stuck in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPMJOcLuZms

It has Timbales, Bongo and Conga solos, allowing you to pick up and personalize basic to advanced phrases.

More importantly, there are lots of tracks with the full band playing and at the appropriate time the words "play your solo here" flashes on the screen.

[Tonio]

G,
Forgot to mention, a good way to intuitively feel 8 , 16 bars is to trade 8, 16's with someone. Maybe start with 4bars, and move up. You could also try to mimic each other too.

Then start throw in some breaks together on a cue by a head nod or count it out loud etc. Your creative side should start to grow with it. It could be endless in what you can do.


T

[burke]

I think I may have asked this before but its relevant to this discussion. Do you concider clave a one bar phrase or two? Most books write as two but a quote from the Tomas Cruz books say:

"In Cuba, music is usually written in 16th notes such that one clave lasts one measure of 4/4 Outside Cuba, music is usually written in 8th notes so that one clave lasts two measures."

Or is the answer that it varies and if so whats most common?

Darrell

[bongosnotbombs]

I think I may have asked this before but its relevant to this discussion. Do you concider clave a one bar phrase or two? Most books write as two but a quote from the Tomas Cruz books say:

"In Cuba, music is usually written in 16th notes such that one clave lasts one measure of 4/4 Outside Cuba, music is usually written in 8th notes so that one clave lasts two measures."

Or is the answer that it varies and if so whats most common?

Darrell

Neither, I think of clave as one clave. In music with clave I don't think of bars, I think about clave repetitions.
One clave equals one clave no matter how it is written.

I think Tomas Cruz's book answers your question pretty well. However I read clave written both ways every day, depending on which chart
I'm reading.

Jazz typically doesn't have clave so I need to count the bars and listen to the chord progression of the bass.
In musics with clave, I listen to the clave repetitions.

[davidpenalosa]

Do you concider clave a one bar phrase or two?

It's both, which makes these discussions a little tricky. Clave represents the musical period; the complete basic musical phrase consisting of two halves—an antecedent and a consequent. When discussing things such as the lengths of solos, I prefer to speak of clave cycles, rather than bars. For example, I'll say a solo is "sixteen claves." That way, there can be no confusion if we are talking about half claves or full claves.
-David

[burke]

Jazz typically doesn't have clave so I need to count the bars and listen to the chord progression of the bass.
In musics with clave, I listen to the clave repetitions.[/quote]

I guess I was assuming "latin Jazz" and even without clave in those gigs I usually end up defaulting to a two drum tumbao or tumbaoish type thing - so hence a clave cycle gives me a reference point...but if its not latiny jazz ... not so much I guess.